What were the 3 software developers ordered to cease and dissist?

[Luke]

Do you offer an access database in your programme, Luke? If not than I'm afraid you're SOL.

This whole thing would be moot if WOTC had expanded their SRD like they said they would, in Good Faith, mind you. But as I've said, the SRD is a tool for them to get OUR material, not open up theirs, so they can fire off more game designers/writers and let us do all the work. I mean seriously, it's sad when the creative personel at a game company are outnumbered by the business managers.

As for Twin Rose's CS, I wasn't aware that you had the legal right to create non-SRD files. I thought you were using the same method as PCGen and depending on the community to make the lists for you. If so, you are in violation up to your eyeballs by letting these'IP Pirates' distribute content for your software. What's the story?

- I don't need to use Access to import from Access.

- WotC has been reasonable with the SRD so far. They did add Psionics. They claimed on the official OGL list that they were waiting on staffing to add Epic as well (I *think* it was Epic). The SRD content (the foundation for virtually every D20 publisher), has been grounded on content largely in the draft stage for a ridiculous amount of time. When you consider, however, all the retrenchments and restructuring WotC has experienced over the last year, there's plenty of room to allow for the benefit of the doubt.

- I don't think that WotC can use the SRD to get our material. If you build on the SRD with closed material, it's *yours*. That's why you don't (and won't) see wizards republishing other D20 publisher work.

- What do you mean by non-SRD files? The system is inherently expandable, and this is fundamental to the licenses. When you add to it, you designate new content as being open (not copyright, and freely usable), or closed (you're not allowed to redistribute yourself).
In a nutshell, the rules of redistribution of data/rules go as follows:
- SRD is fine, as long as you comply with either the D20 or OGL licences.
- WotC non-SRD material is not okay. There's simply no avenue there except a special license (very expensive) or permission. This stuff is covered by neither the D20 or OGL licenses, being beyond both since Wizards own it.
- 3rd party publishers must themselves adhere to either the D20 or OGL licenses for anything they produce, and anything they designate as "open" is okay for anyone to use. You, in turn must adhere to the "virul" license the content is published under.

Till now PCGen has operated under neither the OGL or D20 licenses, simply "breaking" copyright. The approach was to use any material they could get their hands on, and use it until there was a complaint from the copyright owner. My understanding is that complainants often entered into discussion with the PCGen crew, and then agreed to have their source material included in PCGen. I'm pretty darn sure that WotC themselves never gave permission (hence the recent withdrawal of non-SRD Wizards material).
PCGen was certainly in an interesting position till now (and this may continue ). Essentially, they had a "critical mass" making them the sole standard, where any D20 publisher *not* allowing their material to be included was disadvantaged competitively with other D20 publishers.
The interesting thing now is whether E-Tools may be in a position to take over that role. It may well be that D20 publishers may prefer their material to be E-Tools compatible (or maybe both).

Regardless of all this, and whatever the future brings, we can all agree that PCGen has played an *extremely* significant role in providing a crucial service to gamers up to this point. Mynex, Leopold, and the crew have done an amazing job. After all, why did WotC allow such a massive violation till now. They created a (brilliant) 3rd edition set of mechanics that screams for software support, and until now they couldn't provide it themselves. Whilst the crackdown does seem cruelly timed (within days of the E-Tools release), WotC have established a precedent for "D20 house cleaning" at Cons, and they're relying on big initial ETools sales to stop the project from dying. They must have poured over a million into it's development by now (if you consider all the trashed early mapper, graphics and sound work ). I'm sure that PCGen is a large part of the reason that many D&D consumers persisted with 3rd edition, and it's a shame that WotC will probably not really be able to thank PCGen for the great assistance it has provided in helping prop up 3rd edition till now...

Regards,

 

[Luke]

[accidental dupicate message deleted]

 

[Leopold]

Till now PCGen has operated under neither the OGL or D20 licenses, simply "breaking" copyright. The approach was to use any material they could get their hands on, and use it until there was a complaint from the copyright owner. My understanding is that complainants often entered into discussion with the PCGen crew, and then agreed to have their source material included in PCGen. I'm pretty darn sure that WotC themselves never gave permission (hence the recent withdrawal of non-SRD Wizards material).

we did have some type of 'permission' from WoTC a long time ago but nothing offical. The details are sketchy and I am not completely sure of them but I know emails were exchanged by but whom and who I don't know for sure.

PCGen was certainly in an interesting position till now (and this may continue ). Essentially, they had a "critical mass" making them the sole standard, where any D20 publisher *not* allowing their material to be included was disadvantaged competitively with other D20 publishers.

well that seems a bit harsher than it really was. PCGen still is a fanbased tool and application. We feel that reaching out to all gamers regardless of system used or game utilized is key. Hence we asked every publisher that we could for permission to allow us to use them. What we got was a bunch of people on the list saying "What product is this? What does it do? It's in PCGen so I must buy it!" or "I refuse to buy it until it's in PCGEN!" Variations of those have occured but it still is to the publishers advantage to allow PC's to be created using PCGen as it does not cost them a thing and makes for great PR.

Regardless of all this, and whatever the future brings, we can all agree that PCGen has played an *extremely* significant role in providing a crucial service to gamers up to this point. Mynex, Leopold, and the crew have done an amazing job.

I am merely one voice among hundreds who are pleased that the community enjoys the work. My role is small compared to others but just knowing that people like the product make it all worthwhile.

I'm sure that PCGen is a large part of the reason that many D&D consumers persisted with 3rd edition, and it's a shame that WotC will probably not really be able to thank PCGen for the great assistance it has provided in helping prop up 3rd edition till now...

, [/B]

thank you Luke for the kind words. I know we work hard to bring the community the best that they deserve. The future for us is bright and it is a great thing to see the community supporting us as we do for them.

 

[Twin Rose]

As for Twin Rose's CS, I wasn't aware that you had the legal right to create non-SRD files. I thought you were using the same method as PCGen and depending on the community to make the lists for you. If so, you are in violation up to your eyeballs by letting these'IP Pirates' distribute content for your software. What's the story?

The nature of software is such that files can be created and shared. I "allow it" in that the software is flexible, but I certainly do not condone it. In fact, in some ways it cuts into what I try to accomplish, and when everyone "knows" that they can get it very easily I fall under more scrutiny. Certainly, someone could claim that since Adobe Acrobat lets people scan in the players handbook, it would be in violation, but this isn't the case... It's what the end users do with their license that is the issue.

Recently, we found a pirate site in Russia that had been distributing CS along with data from WOTC. This is highly frowned upon by both of us, as you can imagine. We reported the site to WOTC itself, as well as came at them through the TrialWare professional association - an organization dedicated to removing hacked material from the web. I would be putting out quite a double-standard if I began endorsing people 'stealing' IP and putting it out there.

well that seems a bit harsher than it really was. PCGen still is a fanbased tool and application. We feel that reaching out to all gamers regardless of system used or game utilized is key. Hence we asked every publisher that we could for permission to allow us to use them. What we got was a bunch of people on the list saying "What product is this? What does it do? It's in PCGen so I must buy it!" or "I refuse to buy it until it's in PCGEN!" Variations of those have occured but it still is to the publishers advantage to allow PC's to be created using PCGen as it does not cost them a thing and makes for great PR.

By the way, it was great to meet you at the Con, Leo, and put a face to the name and shake your hand. I think what you guys do is great, if a hard task. Despite what people seem to get stuck in their head, CS is a lot more than a character generator. If it was JUST that, our sales would not be up and we'd not be going to distribution after E-Tools came out. We aren't in competition

But, I think some of the publishers got the "impression" that the way you guys said "We'll post the names of anyone not wanting us to use their stuff" was some sort of veiled threat that they'd get negative exposure, and I think otehrs are a little worried that if their copyrights are found to be distributed (with permission) the "wrong way" they might get in trouble. I'm sure it's not the case, and that they feel as I do about fan work, but might want to check in with them personally just to cover bases.

Do you know if you guys are being given a grace period and treated as though you had in fact been using the OGL, or given a period to stop distribution and GET in compliance with the OGL?

 

[Ranger REG]

Ok, so evidently WOTC has asked PCGen folks not to distribute WOTC IP material.

Will WOTC have a double standard? Will WOTC allow Fluid to distribute IP material? Will WOTC allow other people to post splatbook material for e-tools on there websites?

If WotC have a double standard it has been that way since the publishing of Third Edition Player's Handbook.

There is no double standard. WotC went out to contract Fluid to develop the software, and WotC would be in charge of publishing (i.e, make copies of the master) and distributing the wares under their label. They can do that.

The developers of PCGen (man, I have got to call them by their organization/company name, profit or non-profit) develop the program on their own, it was a fan-based program at first but then it expanded to include more material and data from other d20 sources. It got to the point where it has its own community of fans. Even FORMER Wizards employees practically endorse it.

If Fluid wants to do an expansion based on Wizards' IP material, they have to get the green light from Wizards. If anything, Wizards should let them.

 

[Leopold]

By the way, it was great to meet you at the Con, Leo, and put a face to the name and shake your hand. I think what you guys do is great, if a hard task. Despite what people seem to get stuck in their head, CS is a lot more than a character generator. If it was JUST that, our sales would not be up and we'd not be going to distribution after E-Tools came out. We aren't in competition

You too TR! Always nice to meet people to talk about things. Now I can put a name to the face!

But, I think some of the publishers got the "impression" that the way you guys said "We'll post the names of anyone not wanting us to use their stuff" was some sort of veiled threat that they'd get negative exposure, and I think otehrs are a little worried that if their copyrights are found to be distributed (with permission) the "wrong way" they might get in trouble. I'm sure it's not the case, and that they feel as I do about fan work, but might want to check in with them personally just to cover bases.

we said that? Woahhh! When? I missed that part of the conversation!

Do you know if you guys are being given a grace period and treated as though you had in fact been using the OGL, or given a period to stop distribution and GET in compliance with the OGL?

I belive bryan and mynex are working on that as we speak. They will be issuing a press release in a few days to explain more. All I know is that we are working toward OGL (which we were doing anyway) and just had to remove the NON-SRD stuff.

 

[Leopold]

The developers of PCGen (man, I have got to call them by their organization/company name, profit or non-profit) develop the program on their own, it was a fan-based program at first but then it expanded to include more material and data from other d20 sources. It got to the point where it has its own community of fans. Even FORMER Wizards employees practically endorse it.

whats wrong with "Developers of PCGen"? Sounds good to me! Even "PCGen team" works! as long as you don't say it without stating there is more than one person, we are all happy.

And which former WOTC employees love it? I'd LOVE to get them on record!

 

[gariig]

Will WOTC have a double standard? Will WOTC allow Fluid to distribute IP material? Will WOTC allow other people to post splatbook material for e-tools on there websites?

I believe they will. Even if the E-tools community inputs non-SRD materail and distrubutes the data it makes E-tools that much more attractive and will help sell more E-tools. However, having a FREE Character Generator with all that material doesn't sell more E-tools it will sell less more than likely. Also, I think once everyone said "E-tools sucks use PCGen" and said that because it supported more than the Core Rules, WoTC realized they are in a losing battle with a FREE competitive product. Yes, PCGen people say they aren't in competition with E-tools, but E-tools is in competition with PCGen.

Quite honestly, no D&D program is worth a snippet of code without using the non-SRD stuff because it's the most abundant used rules after the Core. Most people in another thread said they use the other Splatbooks as extra material.

So, will WoTC turn a blind eye to people having their IP in E-tools, you bet it will especially if it sells more E-tools.

Gariig

 

[smetzger]

If Fluid wants to do an expansion based on Wizards' IP material, they have to get the green light from Wizards. If anything, Wizards should let them.

They are already doing this by providing a place for users to upload files.

I was just wondering how WOTC would react if splatbook files become prolific (which I think they will) and a 3rd party decideds to use the same format that e-tools uses (which I think will happen).

In effect WOTC will have created a defacto standard for exchanging information. Just depends how usable the information is in the datafiles and if e-tools will be able to ignore extensions.

 

[Mynex]

But, I think some of the publishers got the "impression" that the way you guys said "We'll post the names of anyone not wanting us to use their stuff" was some sort of veiled threat that they'd get negative exposure, and I think otehrs are a little worried that if their copyrights are found to be distributed (with permission) the "wrong way" they might get in trouble. I'm sure it's not the case, and that they feel as I do about fan work, but might want to check in with them personally just to cover bases.

1) No one ever said any such thing, we said if any publisher we contacted said no, then we would have no problems with that, or if we had the files yank them immediately... I've stated that so many times I can type it in my sleep.

2) Not one publisher said anyting about concern or worry about their material being used in PCGen. And I asked.

To be fair, because it is a fan based workforce, there has been a overzealousnees on occaission that's had to be weeded out... and with our popularity growing, we've instituted some new data controls... They have to pass numerous test as well as being send to the publisher for approval before they will get into the distribution.

More to come in the next few days.