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D&D 5E What will 5E D&D be remembered for?

I had a similar experience, in that, in most systems, prep was too much of a pain to be worth it, so my prep time was 0, I'd just wing it rather than spending hours stating out some monster or NPC or trying to plan for every crazy thing a Tier 1 caster might pull out of his sleeve. In 4e, I could 'prep' a 4-5 encounter 'day' in minutes, if I was just picking and re-skinning monsters, maybe an hour if I were building new ones. That's a lot more than 0. Shorter/easier prep means I'm more likely to do some prep rather than none at all, which averages out to 'longer' prep.

You can re-skin monsters and put an encounter together rather quickly in 4e. The problem is that you end up with a rather generic encounter that isn't much different than all the others. If you truly wanted to do things correctly in 4e you had to spend much more time designing the grid, including hazards, traps, skill challenges during combat etc. That takes time, and it takes even more time to add in custom monsters. Heck just knowing what damage dice to use for each type of attack was a royal pain. Every single stat had a formula for you to follow. There are special formulas for each type of monster (brute, elite, skirmisher, etc). You couldn't create a custom monster on the fly, unless you had a bunch of cheat sheets and tables. Sure, you can use a computer program to do much of it, but doesn't that requirement shine poorly on a game intended for the table?

In some ways 5e has greatly simplified the creation of custom monsters, like 2e you can pick the AC based on its armor, pick the damage based on weapon type, and add in spell like powers, etc. I'm very happy about being able to do that again in D&D.
 
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You can re-skin monsters and put an encounter together rather quickly in 4e. The problem is that you end up with a rather generic encounter that isn't much different than all the others.
Not remotely true. For instance, the first time I ran 4e was off the cuff at in open gaming at a convention. I'd had an idea for a scenario - a 4-encounter elemental-themed mini-dungeon - and I had some characters' I'd built for the con. When the opportunity presented, I went through the MM and picked & reskinned some monsters, since there weren't elementals of the right level. Specters became air elementals, a black dragon a water elemental, kruthik earth elementals, and fire bats. So, Lurker battle, Skirmisher battle, Solo battle, and Elite + minion - each quite different. Prep time was minutes, result was awesome.

And, before you go "but every battle with standard lurkers is the same as every other..." consider that there were 6 roles, 5 secondary roles, and the leader option - there were essentially 60 broad classifications of monsters. Then you could mix them (even mix solos with others with a large enough party), each combination giving you a different sort of encounter. And, that's if you assume that two monsters having the same roles made them the same, which is also a false assumption...

If you truly wanted to do things correctly in 4e you had to spend much more time designing the grid, including hazards, traps, skill challenges during combat etc.
There's no such thing as 'correctly' there's what works for your group. The DMG had bunches of traps & hazards, the MMs plenty of monsters, if you wanted to combine them, you could. SCs were wonky at first but weaving one into a combat could be worth it. None of that really took oodles of time, though. I've designed epic-level sessions in 20 minutes, a 16th level half-day convention game in an hour and a half. It was just stunningly fast and easy to prep 4e, even with the balky off-line tools.

That takes time, and it takes even more time to add in custom monsters. Heck just knowing what damage dice to use for each type of attack was a royal pain.
It's always been an undertaking to design a monster. Formulae at least gave you somewhere to start, and even when the tools sucked, they made that part easy.

In some ways 5e has greatly simplified the creation of custom monsters
In some ways, in others, not so much. And the encounter guidelines are baroque and less than dependable. I find it's once again easier not to prep at all. Not so much because the prep work is more time-consuming than 4e, though it is, but because there's no payoff. I'll end up tweaking everything on the fly, anyway.

That's not really a criticism, either, I'm very comfortable running that way, it suits my style.

When I say Theater of the Mind I don´t need mechanics that support it. I just need no rules in the PHB that make heavy use of the grid.
So it's not that you want rules that make TotM easier, it's just that you want rules for minis to be inadequate? That's a little weird. What's wrong with supporting both? 13A seemed to do it, and 5e supports mini/grid use in an optional module. It could have had a TotM module, too.

And a 5ft step or shifting also made the narrative worse, since many combats worked as "I run to the archer that he can´t shoot." -> Archer makes a 5ft step back and shoots without penalty.
Nod. The 5' step and the full attack rules could make 3e combats a little weird. Ranged/casting not so much moving as shuffling around, and melee notoriously 'static.' You could buy your way out of it with Spring Attack/Ride-by Attack/Shot on the Run/Mounted Archery on the fighter side, maxxed tumble with Rogues, and maxxed Concentration on the caster side.

4e addressed both issues with more dynamic movement rules contrasted with defender 'stickiness,' FWLIWW.

5e is back to the old 'parting shot' rules, and you can just cast right in someone's face with no issue - but, archers do get disadvantage in melee...
 
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And many of them are strictly in every way better than the base classes they are ostensibly kits of. Even base classes that are already superb, like the "2nd best at every single thing in the game, except the stuff I'm best at" 2e cleric.

Kits weren't even being balanced by the ostensible traditional mechanic of "strictly better classes take more XP to level."

That's terrible design, in my opinion. But you're right you didn't have to use them, any more than you "had" to use various supplements for 3.X, 4e, etc.



Why?

They all seem fundamentally similar to me, same as new archetypes in 5e.

I don't hate the existence of options on principle. But I will be careful about including them due to the times they lead to power creep (read: always, inevitably, forever and ever, in every system.)

Kits were not really designed for power gaming options, they were designed for role playing. In some cases a Kit would have more hindrances than benefits, but that was intentional. A fighter who has access to full plate is always going to be more powerful than a fighter who's culture has never seen it or who's ethos forbids it. Still, if a player wants to make a Savage Fighter you should have that option regardless of imbalances.

It's like arguing that some weapons are more powerful than others. Yes, some kits are as well, but that doesn't mean a particular campaign or a culture within won't find a use for them.

I really think you have to look at Kits much differently than you do a PrC or a Sub Class. They are not the same thing. They were designed with a different purpose in mind.
 

You can re-skin monsters and put an encounter together rather quickly in 4e. The problem is that you end up with a rather generic encounter that isn't much different than all the others. If you truly wanted to do things correctly in 4e you had to spend much more time designing the grid, including hazards, traps, skill challenges during combat etc. That takes time, and it takes even more time to add in custom monsters. Heck just knowing what damage dice to use for each type of attack was a royal pain. Every single stat had a formula for you to follow. There are special formulas for each type of monster (brute, elite, skirmisher, etc). You couldn't create a custom monster on the fly, unless you had a bunch of cheat sheets and tables. Sure, you can use a computer program to do much of it, but doesn't that requirement shine poorly on a game intended for the table?
Obviously, mileage varies, and I'm not trying to convince you to like 4e (I gave that up quite a while ago, after Sisyphus loaned me his painkillers), but I found making custom monsters in 4e dirt simple. Of course, I find it pretty simple in any edition on D&D, as long as you ignore the formulas and just write down the numbers you need, which are attack modifiers, damage expressions, and saves.
 



Obviously, mileage varies, and I'm not trying to convince you to like 4e (I gave that up quite a while ago, after Sisyphus loaned me his painkillers), but I found making custom monsters in 4e dirt simple. Of course, I find it pretty simple in any edition on D&D, as long as you ignore the formulas and just write down the numbers you need, which are attack modifiers, damage expressions, and saves.

Well there are formulas for every single stat not just those three. Hit points, ac values, skills, etc, all have several forumlas.

Regardless, I'm not sure it helps argue in favour of 4e if the way to make it work hinges on ignoring its prescribed rules/methods.
 


So it's not that you want rules that make TotM easier, it's just that you want rules for minis to be inadequate? That's a little weird. What's wrong with supporting both? 13A seemed to do it, and 5e supports mini/grid use in an optional module. It could have had a TotM module, too.

Nod. The 5' step and the full attack rules could make 3e combats a little weird. Ranged/casting not so much moving as shuffling around, and melee notoriously 'static.' You could buy your way out of it with Spring Attack/Ride-by Attack/Shot on the Run/Mounted Archery on the fighter side, maxxed tumble with Rogues, and maxxed Concentration on the caster side.

4e addressed both issues with more dynamic movement rules contrasted with defender 'stickiness,' FWLIWW.

5e is back to the old 'parting shot' rules, and you can just cast right in someone's face with no issue - but, archers do get disadvantage in melee...

I have no problem with mini rules... But I don´t want them to be the default rules. As I said I think it is good that they are at the DMG.

And to the 4e stickiness thing... I liked it. And I liked it that spells were ranged or melee with different rules. Disadvantage in melee is however workig well enough for my tastes, but yes 4e was a little better in that regard. But in the end, 4e combat taken on its own was a lot of fun, but it somehow worked against my preferred style of roleplaying. I stopped playing 4e when in the really great gardmore abbey adventure just advancing 3 rooms took a whole day, because every combat was a puzzle to be solved...
 

Regardless, I'm not sure it helps argue in favour of 4e if the way to make it work hinges on ignoring its prescribed rules/methods.
He was actually referring to all other editions, there.
Yes, but that's what that section in the 2e DMG rebuking min/maxing is all about.
OK then.

I have no problem with mini rules... But I don´t want them to be the default rules. As I said I think it is good that they are at the DMG.
IDK. I really quite like 3e-style MCing & Feats. In 5e they're not the default, that doesn't ruin 5e for me. If the mini rules in 5e had been default, and the DMG had a module of great TotM rules, would that have been such a bad thing?

Every game is just what you make of it, that way, and it's always easier to toss something out than make it up yourself...
 
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