What would WotC need to do to win back the disenchanted?

[billd91]

I admit that 4e introduces more verisimilitude breaking in order to make the game more balanced and to control challenge levels. But that kind of thing has always gone on, and to a pretty major extent. More powerful monsters are always on lower dungeon levels??! C'mon, why can't there be a dragon on level 1?

There's an art to game design, particularly between balancing gamist concerns and verisimilitude. And everyone draws lines where they feel the balancing point is: between gamism and verisimilitude, between innovation and tradition, between story and mechanics. 4e crossed mine in mulitple ways.

Now that Star Wars is gone from their product list, WotC won't get me back until they start selling me products that cross back over my lines. Until then, they're in territory selling things I don't want and have no use for. And this from someone who was buying D&D stuff up through the very end of the 3x cycle (from 1e days, through 2e and on), had bought a few older editions PDFs, and had been a loyal subscriber to Dungeon for years. 4e (and the run up to it for the Dungeon license) ended all of that in a very short time frame. I realize they knew they would lose some gamers with the change, but are guys like me really what they intended? From loyal and consistent customer for 25 years to nothing at all?

 

[Mournblade94]

Well, I guess you need to link to the exact quote where Wizards told you that you were "a nerd for liking gnomes". My guess is it never happened. You may have interpreted it that way, but that was your issue to deal with.

No they did not say it LITERALLY. Make no mistake, and just watch the "funny" advertisement videos for 4e, the marketing was directed at how 3rd edition was played wrong. If YOU go back and look at the early marketing quotes, you will see the mistakes that were made in telling older players they played wrong. Some developers have apologized for it on blogs. If you want a works cited or bibliography of these quotes, I cannot provide, but the information is there.

Again, does this seem hurtful? Because it shouldn't be taken that way.

If you felt the need to say this you must think that it is hurtful in some way.

 

[Kobold Boots]

First... I didn't say "reality" and I did this on purpose. See I've seen this discussion get mired down in the "There is no reality in a fantasy world... because it's not real" argument before and I want to avoid that particular tactic of discrediting this complaint against 4e. So again versimilitude is the word I am using. The illusion of realism in the game world through believable actions and consequences within the accepted norm of said world... barring magical intervention of course.

Now, for my example...I'll trot out the ever popular... Come and Get It. This power, by RAW, forces a DM's characters to act a certain way... regardless of everything else that is going on, regardless of what makes the most sense for this character... regardless of the story. Then says... hey you figure out why your iron-willed and genius level tactician Big Bad has decicded to, against all common sense, rush up to the Fighter and leave his tactically advantageous position to get whacked... Why, again is this happening... why is my NPC acting totally against his nature, that I've built up in my game world and in the narrative session after session? Because it's a mechanic that doesn't consider narrative first.

1. Verisimilitude/Reality: You're splitting hairs. Perception is one person's reality and the illusion of reality is perception. I understand your need to make a point, but it's a flawed one from a cognitive basis in my opinion.

2. Why does your big bad master level tactician need to be so mature and infallible that a worldly fighter with the reputation of someone who has Come and Get It... can't be so renown as a jerk to the world that the tactician won't come out and take him on one on one?

Why does your big bad master level tactician need to be so sure of himself and infallible that he doesn't read into the tactical situation incorrectly and engage the taunt?

Why does your fighter when using the taunt always have to be in a superior tactical position? Can you not just change the encounter when the power is too unbalancing? Can the bid bad's minions not change position to support him when he steps out of formation?

There's no reason why any power can't be explained or retcon'd into a story if the DM is flexible enough with the tools he's provided. Sure, there are some times when it really would be an issue and be considered DM munchkinism, but I'm guessing that what we're talking about is the 2% of the time and not the whole.

Your thoughts?

KB

 

[Bluenose]

4e is unabashedly gamist first... yet you believe the mechanics don't come before the "story"?

IMO, anytime you have mechanics that cause me or my players to have to struggle to come up with "what just happened" in a narrative fashion that doesn't strain versimilitude... the mechanics have definitely come first and the story, well that's basically been left up to you to figure out a way to construct around the mechanics.

You mean like hit points, classes, levels? If they don't stretch your sense of verisimilitude, I don't see there's much else in and version of D&D that will.

 

[Saint&Sinner]

These would generate good will. Do limited run reprints of the old editions (clean up with errata) and update the DDI to fully handle them in turn. Put their old catalog up on a POD service to allow us to fill in the holes in our libraries. Putting the PDF's back out there would be nice.

To really hook me though they'd need to make a game that scales down to rules lite since I just don't have the time to develop the system mastery needed to run D&D 4th ed.

 

[Mournblade94]

The answer to the question at the subject of the thread is three-fold.

1. Buy Paizo and continue to support the 3.X game.

The sith lord rises, the straps release. His control of the sith armor is awkward as he tries to control limbs that are not his own.

His master who wants to own him completely revels the news that Paizo has been bought by Wizards of the COast. The medical droids cease to function as their chasis slowly implode, and red tinted bacta leaks out of its cracking tanks....

"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" cries the sith lord in agony.

 

[Imaro]

You mean like hit points, classes, levels? If they don't stretch your sense of verisimilitude, I don't see there's much else in and version of D&D that will.

I addressed this before, unless your characters (not players) discuss hitpoints, their class or their level in game... how does this affect the versimilitude of the gameworld?

 

[Kaiyanwang]

The sith lord rises, the straps release. His control of the sith armor is awkward as he tries to control limbs that are not his own.

His master who wants to own him completely revels the news that Paizo has been bought by Wizards of the COast. The medical droids cease to function as their chasis slowly implode, and red tinted bacta leaks out of its cracking tanks....

"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" cries the sith lord in agony.

Thank you very much. I'm definitively going to have a nightmare about it this night

 

[Mournblade94]

These would generate good will. Do limited run reprints of the old editions (clean up with errata) and update the DDI to fully handle them in turn. Put their old catalog up on a POD service to allow us to fill in the holes in our libraries. Putting the PDF's back out there would be nice.

To really hook me though they'd need to make a game that scales down to rules lite since I just don't have the time to develop the system mastery needed to run D&D 4th ed.

In my time playing 4e, I think there is a very basic rule that new players can grab onto quite easily. System mastery is very easy to acquire in 4e.

 

[Bluenose]

I addressed this before, unless your characters (not players) discuss hitpoints, their class or their level in game... how does this affect the versimilitude of the gameworld?

Fine. How can a high level barbarian commit ritual suicide by jumping off a cliff, splattering on rocks at the bottom, getting up, climbing back up that cliff and doing it again until he gets it right and dies?