What would WotC need to do to win back the disenchanted?

[Umbran]

...Why do we want to buy DVD's of Disney's Snow White instead of making our own?

Sorry, I wasn't clear.

I was saying earlier that while WotC's reaction may not have been the smartest, it was understandable, as they were traditionally in the business of selling copyrighted materials, and it isn't so strange that someone fears losing their lifeblood.

KM came back at me that much of their material was not covered by copyright, because they were public domain in the first place, or rules that cannot be covered by copyright. Supposedly, they *weren't* making their money off of selling copyrighted stuff, so they should have no fear of losing their hold, as they never had it.

But then, we should have such close copies from things like OSRIC that really, we would be satisfied by them, and wouldn't need WotC versions. Making a close copy would have been easy (it wasn't, but if KM is correct it should have been).

Your reaction, however, tells me that KM is just wrong. There's a whole lot to WotC's particular expression (which is copyrightable) that others simply cannot satisfy. It really is the copyrightable part that matters.

And, if that's true, then the fear is understandable, and my point stands.

 

[ggroy]

If that's so strong a statement, why should we expect them to publish pdfs of that minimal amount of content? If it isn't under copyright, nothing's stopping others from publishing it...

And lookee here: OSRIC. I guess you're right! So, again, why should they be selling us their pdfs?

There's numerous "fantasy heartbreaker" rpgs over the years which used many tropes common to D&D. Non-heartbreaker varieties include rpgs like Runequest, Earthdawn, Dragon Warriors, MERP/Rolemaster, Warhammer, etc ...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I am not sure there are a single set of realities that applies to all IP equally. If nothing else, we have copyright and patent because not all IP is the same. It follows that different types of content will be used differently, and the public will or may think of them differently, such that they will have slightly differing practical realities.

On a certain level, you're correct.

The different protection regimes for IP revolve around what is protected and for how long. Patents have a limited lifetime because we want inventors to be able to recoup their investments and profit, but we also want others to have the benefit of the tech because they may find a new way to use it that the original holder may never have imagined.

Copyrights have a longer lifespan, at least in part because their secondary benefits- their use by others- are not going to benefit society in general in quite as concrete a fashion as patents. Elton John's "Someone Saved My Life Tonight" is far less likely to actually save someone's life than a seatbelt or airbag, for instance.

Trademarks can be renewed essentially ad infinitum, as long as their owners keep registering them. That's because their main function is to make the identification of manufacturers and service providers easier- invaluable for building brand loyalty...and determining liability.

My point is that they don't have a lot of other product, so that thinking of the game content as a loss-leader may not be a wise thing for them.

They're the ones with the financial data. They have to know what is selling and what isn't...and if the D&D umbrella has the RPG returning (fake figures follow) $1.01 for every $1 while the video games base on it are returning $10 for every $1, and every other D&D product is in between those poles, the RPG is you loss leader, plain & simple.

Potential revenues? What potential revenues? I can understand the idea that someone may desire to pay the real owner of a property rather than take a illegal copy for free. But to pay one provider for an illegal copy when you can have an illegal copy for free in five minutes seems... a bit alien to me

Not every pirate distributes for free. One very insidious form of piracy dresses up their pilfered goods in all the hallmarks of a legit business and sells the property. With physical goods, these would be the guys selling fake Rolexes, Dooney Burke handbags, and bootlegged CDs & DVDs. In the purely digital realm, this is one of the big things that Russian and Chinese pirate sites have been doing...as well as a growing number of sites with ties to terrorist organizations (according to INTERPOL, the FBI, and other police agencies). The site looks like- say...Amazon.com.uk or perhaps a local retailer- and they're having a 70% off blowout sale! But all the money is going to the pirates.

 

[fanboy2000]

OSRIC is golden, but I bet a lot of OSRIC players would still pay WotC $5 for a PDF of the original 1e Monster Manual.

Hell, I would, and I don't play any retroclones.

I've been thinking about this, why didn't they get them when they were available? Wizards had those PDFs up for sale for years. At dirt cheep prices. There's a finite selection of old material. Surely it was easy, within that time frame, to buy all the PDFs necessary for your favorite edition.

I didn't get all the PDFs I wanted either, for whatever that's worth. The reason is that PDFs of old editions were low down on my priority list. I have a feeling that a lot of people were going to buy such-and-such a PDF "someday" but that never translated into a sale. Eventually, Wizards realizes that, after having the old editions available for years, they've made as much money as their going to make on them and it really does cost more to keep them up than it does to take them down, despite the fact that they were a top PDF seller.

If Wizards makes the PDFs available again, they'd get a huge rush of orders, and then it would dwindle down again in a month. I know that, should they become available again, I have a list of products I'd like.

I bought most of my PDFs when I was running d20 Future because I could buy old Star*Drive stuff. When I stopped doing that, I didn't need to buy PDFs.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I've been thinking about this, why didn't they get them when they were available? Wizards had those PDFs up for sale for years. At dirt cheep prices. There's a finite selection of old material. Surely it was easy, within that time frame, to buy all the PDFs necessary for your favorite edition.

I didn't get all the PDFs I wanted either, for whatever that's worth. The reason is that PDFs of old editions were low down on my priority list. I have a feeling that a lot of people were going to buy such-and-such a PDF "someday" but that never translated into a sale. Eventually, Wizards realizes that, after having the old editions available for years, they've made as much money as their going to make on them and it really does cost more to keep them up than it does to take them down, despite the fact that they were a top PDF seller.

If Wizards makes the PDFs available again, they'd get a huge rush of orders, and then it would dwindle down again in a month. I know that, should they become available again, I have a list of products I'd like.

I bought most of my PDFs when I was running d20 Future because I could buy old Star*Drive stuff. When I stopped doing that, I didn't need to buy PDFs.

This is a actually a good point. Sometimes you don't know what you got till it's gone.

 

[Imaro]

One of the things I find interesting about this whole line about marketing to a younger generation is that D&D has traditionally relied on older players to pull newer players in and teach them the game. I guess I'm wondering... if your older player base declines drastically, and you don't have the same amount to pull in new players... what's your new plan to actually make somebody totally new to D&D want to even pick up the red box? I think this may be one of the reasons Essentials is trying to sprinkle a little "old school coating" on 4e, as opposed to being just a newbie entry product. I think if WotC actually felt that they're current player base was large enough to grow the new one into a satisfactory customer base... we wouldn't see such concessions... we would see a hard line, just like with the PDF's, since the driving force is always the bottom line.

Of course it's even worse when many of your old base of DM's are actively recruiting for another company.

 

[Umbran]

On a certain level, you're correct.

The different protection regimes for IP revolve around what is protected and for how long.

I'm now thinking in terms of something a bit more subtle.

For most intents and purposes, the same copyright law covers music and RPGs. That does not mean that the business of music is the same as the business of RPGs. So, even if the law is the same, there are probably going to be distinctions between them as to what actions make sense. That a musician can (and maybe should) put out their content as a loss-leader does not imply that an RPG company should.

They're the ones with the financial data. They have to know what is selling and what isn't...and if the D&D umbrella has the RPG returning (fake figures follow) $1.01 for every $1 while the video games base on it are returning $10 for every $1, and every other D&D product is in between those poles, the RPG is you loss leader, plain & simple.

Well, technically a loss-leader is sold at or below cost. Otherwise, it isn't a loss...

But, that's an aside. My point was not as clear as I thought: You can't have a loss-leader if the leader isn't leading anything. They don't have a new movie (and have severely damaged movie earnings potential, even). They don't have a big videogame (Neverwinter Nights is *old*). Until they have one of those big moneymakers, loss-leading is just loss!

If they don't have plans to develop one of those things, don't expect loss-leading strategies.

 

[MerricB]

Of course it's even worse when many of your old base of DM's are actively recruiting for another company.

It is. Good comment.

The trouble is - and I'm sure that Wizards were extremely aware of this when making 4e - that although you have vocal supporters of 3.5e, you have a lot of non-vocal people who were dropping of and refusing to play it any more. 3E was a game I really enjoyed, but at the end the game was just so much work to run.

Truly, running high-level 3E was a game for the dedicated DM and players.

When you can't retain some people with a system that they've been playing because it just becomes too much work, then you have a problem.

Looked at from this point of view, 4E is a system that is intended to retain DMs longer, as well as introduce new players to the game.

Cheers!

 

[I'm A Banana]

I was saying earlier that while WotC's reaction may not have been the smartest, it was understandable, as they were traditionally in the business of selling copyrighted materials, and it isn't so strange that someone fears losing their lifeblood.

I still don't get it. Are you trying to say that we shouldn't criticize WotC for doing something that appears to be silly? Because they were scared?

Look, if someone is going to try to avoid the volcanic eruption by sacrificing virgins to the Volcano God, I'm going to tell them they're being idiots about it.

Or are you just trying to explain their actions? By saying "well, they were scared."

Because then I can tell you why it is tremendously unhelpful to do things motivated out of fear. These things usually become even more true in a corporate environment than they are in other areas of life.

They were scared? Okay, sure. Fear makes people do dumb things? Absolutely. Being afraid drives smart business decisions? Ya lost me.

Surely it was easy, within that time frame, to buy all the PDFs necessary for your favorite edition.

Not for everyone. Loans come due, jobs get lost, babies get born, and folks get robbed every day. Sometimes it is easy to spend $5 on a PDF. Sometimes, it is not.

It seems really narmed to think that everyone who would have wanted them could have got them within the period that they were all available, given that we don't live in a world where infinite money pours from the sky.

 

[ggroy]

That a musician can (and maybe should) put out their content as a loss-leader does not imply that an RPG company should.

Allegedly this has been the case for a long time in places like China. "Rockstars" in China have to make all their income from playing concerts all the time, due to so much piracy of cds and dvds. Essentially music cds are by default a loss-leader from the very start in such a system of rampant piracy.