D&D 5E Whatever "lore" is, it isn't "rules."

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Considering [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] continually responds to your posts, it's hard to see how he's dismissing you or your ideas. It appears to me that he simply thinks you're wrong in your belief as to what constitutes "significant". (Not to put words in anyone's mouth, that's simply how I read the posts.) It's OK to think other people are wrong!

That he responds to my posts in no way means that he isn't dismissing what is significant to me. As for his belief that I am wrong in what constitutes significant, while he can hold that idea, he can never be right about it. Significant is subjective, both for himself and for me. That means that each of us are factually correct about those items being significant. That also means that in general, it's all significant since at least some people find each aspect of lore significant. All he can be correct about is what is significant TO HIM, and what is not significant TO HIM. If he tries to generalize everything that is not significant TO HIM as being insignificant in general, he is objectively wrong with that statement.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
And that's not a bias. It's a belief, about what makes RPGing distinct as an activity from board-type games (which includes M:tG) and from listening to someone tell you a story (which can also have flavour/colour that produces some sort of response from the audience). To put it another way: thinking of GMing as being about adding cows or logs to your ogre encounters is thinking about GMing as performance to entertain an audience (the players) in virtue of colour/flavour. When I think of significance in RPGing, though, I'm thinking of the players as participants/co-authors in relation to the shared fiction, not primarily as audience.

That's flat out wrong. It's not a performance, since it produces a ROLEPLAYING response, rather than the "oohs and ahs" of a performance. What I am describing is different from how you play, but it's also about the shared fiction of the participants and DM, and not about the players being primarily an audience. That sort of statement is why I keep saying you are being dismissive and arrogant.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
There are various uses of "lore" and "rule". I think lore - as in element of the shared fiction - can be, or give rise to, a rule - as in a directive that governs the play of the game. But it doesn't have to. The converse is also true.

Yes, can, but doesn't have to. My contention is that one is not the other unless it is so made, either by the game's designers or its participants.

Lore equivalent to (or entailing) rules
For instance, it could easily be a rule that no dwarves may be wizards (by default, classic D&D has this rule). Is that "lore" or "rules"? Well, it's a directive with which game players are expected to comply - hence a rule. And it establishes some backstory - hence lore.

It's a rule, but it isn't lore. It doesn't establish that there are no dwarven wizards, only that a player can't play one as his/her PC. It also doesn't give any in-world reason why a dwarven PC can't be a wizard. I think this may have something to do with why racial class restrictions became unpopular. They seem to suggest that there is some in-world constraint on the races in question, but offer nothing in the way of explanatory lore. That's because they are rules for PCs that were designed for "game balance".

What about "that blue dragons come from the desert"? That seems like "lore". It can also be a rule, though - eg in some games it might govern the way the GM is allowed to frame encounters ("No blue dragon encounters in the middle of a swamp!").

It only becomes a rule if the table in question makes it one. Dragon lore, as with other monster lore, is a hook for the DM to use to fit the monster into the setting. The DM is under no obligation to use it, and once used the DM is under no obligation to maintain it consistently.

On the other hand, that the dwarven kingdom to the north is called Forgehome (a solid, Dwarf-y name) seems like "lore" - as in, a piece of backstory local to this game at this table - but not a rule. (It doesn't really tell anyone about what they can do in PC building or encounter framing or action resolution.)

Right, I mean, it doesn't establish any rules, does it? If a player decides to call the dwarf kingdom something else, that isn't a case of a rule being broken.

Rules equivalent to (or entailing) lore
Most players encounter the classic D&D restrictions on magic-user weaponry as a rule (daggers only! or daggers, staves and darts, but definitely no swords!). But clearly it produces lore, in the sense of gameworlds in which wizards are never equipped with, or fight with, swords and maces. Hence the many discussions about how one might model Gandalf's use of Glamdring within a D&D framework.

I disagree. The class restriction on weaponry doesn't establish any lore about what weapons you might expect a wizard to use in the setting because the existence of the character class doesn't establish any lore that wizards are an identifiable group of people in the setting. I'm pretty sure most editions of D&D make some allowance for characters that cast spells and wield swords, in any case.

Similarly, the fact that magic-users/wizards can't get healing magic like clerics can is normally first encountered as a rule; as part of learning the PC building rules and the spell lists associated with various classes. But it is also a major contributor to D&D lore - everyone knows that if someone is hurt you don't visit a wizard's guild, you go to a temple!

Again, I don't think the character class rules have the world building effect you attribute to them!

On the other hand, here's a rule that probably doesn't entail some lore in any straightforward way: the old success-chance-by-level table for thieves. Another one might be the healing rules in 5e (some players interpret them as showing that, in the D&D world, recovery from injury is magically fast; some interpret them as showing that hp loss doesn't typically equate to significant physical harm; others just ignore or handwave the whole thing).

I think that nicely illustrates the folly of expecting rules to contribute to lore.
 

pemerton

Legend
You invite me to play in an Eberron game. I know about Eberron, and decide I'm going to play a Warforged Cleric of the Silver Flame named Silvertouched. He was a solider of Thrane who found a calling from the Voice of the Silver Flame and seeks to spread the faith to the heathens and smite evil in all its forms.

You then tell me in your Eberron <snip departures from published canon>

So for me, the name "Eberron" is a kind of contract; you're going to be running the world that is described in the books or on the wiki.
Absolutely. But it also highlights the problem of "non-Canon" games. For example, I was starting a public campaign set in the Forgotten Realms.

<snip lore that departs from Ilbranteloth's expectations>

This is exactly the issue that a lot of us has with the 4e Realms, in that it dramatically changed the world in ways we don't like. But leaving out those portions, especially for more public campaigns has its risks.
I have no idea what proportion of games are "public" games in [MENTION=6778044]Ilbranteloth[/MENTION]'s sense.

My assumption would be that they are only a modest proportion of overall D&D games. They are probably nevertheless disproportionately important to WotC, because of the recruitment function they serve; but I don't think they need to govern the broader D&D community's conception of what someone means when they say they're using GH, or OA, or Eberron, or whatever, as a gameworld.

I mean, if I say "I ran White Plume Mountain", and then it turns out that I substituted a poison for disease in the frictionless corridor pits because I found "super-tetanus" to silly even for that module, have I misdescribed what I did? I don't think so; and I don't think that answer is changed by the fact that, in a tournament situation, fairness would require that every GM run it as written.

As far as the problem that Remathilis describes is concerned, it seems to me that in real life that would be solved by about 5 minutes of communication. It doesn't strike me as a reason for someone like me to not do what I'm doing. (Certainly I've never had a problem of the sort described in all my years of GMing.)
 

pemerton

Legend
It's not a performance, since it produces a ROLEPLAYING response, rather than the "oohs and ahs" of a performance.
You said "The PCs will have different reactions to a bear, cow or log. Those different roleplayed reactions add to the enjoyment of the game, which is significant."

You don't explain what sorts of roleplayed reactions you have in mind, but it sounds like interlocking performances - colour-for-colour: the GM describes, with great fervour, the ogre throwing the cow; and the player describe (or act out), with comparable fervour, their PCs being revolted, or chowing down on the cow, or whatever.

I'm not seeing how it's not all just colour.

Significant is subjective
No it's not. Just to pick the low-hanging fruit - Wagner is a more significant composer than Ringo Starr. That's not just a matter of subjective opinion, and is not refuted by the fact that some people would rather listen to Octopus's Garden rather than Parsifal.

What is valuable in RPGing might be less clear-cut than what is valuable in music composition. But that doesn't mean it is purely subjective either.

If someone thinks that being entertained by the one another's colour is as important, or more important, in RPGing then establishing fictional situations which will be profoundly shaped, in their character and resolution, by decisions of the players, of course that's their prerogative. But in the context of public discussion, let's see the argument!
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
You said "The PCs will have different reactions to a bear, cow or log. Those different roleplayed reactions add to the enjoyment of the game, which is significant."

You don't explain what sorts of roleplayed reactions you have in mind, but it sounds like interlocking performances - colour-for-colour: the GM describes, with great fervour, the ogre throwing the cow; and the player describe (or act out), with comparable fervour, their PCs being revolted, or chowing down on the cow, or whatever.

I'm not seeing how it's not all just colour.

It doesn't matter if it is or it isn't. YOUR criteria do not determine what is or is not significant to other people. So long as something is significant to at least one person, it is significant.

No it's not. Just to pick the low-hanging fruit - Wagner is a more significant composer than Ringo Starr. That's not just a matter of subjective opinion, and is not refuted by the fact that some people would rather listen to Octopus's Garden rather than Parsifal.

Yes it is just subjective opinion. There is no objective criteria that makes Wagner more significant than Ringo Starr. It's all about who likes what more and who places more importance on what. If someone doesn't like classical music, Wagner is about as significant a composer as the cat yowling on the fence outside.

What is valuable in RPGing might be less clear-cut than what is valuable in music composition. But that doesn't mean it is purely subjective either.

So show the objective criteria that applies to music and RPGing that you are using to determine that YOUR preferred type of play is significant and the preferred play of others is not, and that Wagner is more significant than Ringo Starr.

If someone thinks that being entertained by the one another's colour is as important, or more important, in RPGing then establishing fictional situations which will be profoundly shaped, in their character and resolution, by decisions of the players, of course that's their prerogative. But in the context of public discussion, let's see the argument!

I've given the argument. What is or is not significant in the media of RPGing(and music) is entirely subjective. Your response can be boiled down to, "No it isn't" and you expect me to accept that as refutation. I don't accept that at all. If you want me to move on from my position, you need to provide a response with some substance to it.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
It doesn't matter if it is or it isn't. YOUR criteria do not determine what is or is not significant to other people. So long as something is significant to at least one person, it is significant.
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

No it does.

sig·nif·i·cant
siɡˈnifikənt/
adjective
1.
sufficiently great or important to be worthy of attention; noteworthy.
"a significant increase in sales"
synonyms: notable, noteworthy, worthy of attention, remarkable, important, of importance, of consequence, signal; More
2.
having a particular meaning; indicative of something.
"in times of stress her dreams seemed to her especially significant"

Exactly as I thought.
 

ProgBard

First Post
In the full knowledge that I am not a mod, and have the weight of exactly no authority in this matter, I nonetheless make the following request:

Guys, please be civil to each other.

If that's not possible, may I meekly suggest that maybe it's time to walk away from this argument that has now spilled, or maybe splashed, across multiple threads. And consider the possibility, given the b***h-eating-crackers nature the discourse has come to, that by now the argument you're having is no longer about the subject it purports to be.
 


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