What's better: Rain of Blows, or Hesitation Slash?

[Mahali]

As an aside, I can see how you could ignore the formatting to get the automatic third attack answer (though I can see no reason why you would except to get an answer you want rather than the answer that is there), but how can someone twist that power to mean a maximum of two attacks?

As to your original question, Rain of Blows, even with the houseruled version you're using.

I don't want to turn this into another "3 or 4 attacks" thread. Especially after reading them since 4E came out; however after you state what's obvious to you, I'll reply in kind.

The RAW (with proper formatting) of this is clear. The only confusion comes from people who think it is too powerful as written trying to twist it into meaning something else.

So by changing the formatting to your proper way, it reads the way you want it to? The only confused people are those who think it's too powerful and not those that read it as written and with command of the english language.

As an aside, I can see how you could ignore the formatting to get the automatic third attack answer (though I can see no reason why you would except to get an answer you want rather than the answer that is there), but how can someone twist that power to mean a maximum of two attacks?

As to your original question, Rain of Blows, even with the houseruled version you're using.

Or, as an aside, you can continue to read the power as written. This is because it's clear you get 2 attacks, and if you have the correct weapon type an aditional secondary attack.
That's not ignoring the formatting, that's looking at it and reading what it says.
And by houseruled version you mean as written, as intended by the designers, and different than your houseruled version.

 

[MyISPHatesENWorld]

I don't want to turn this into another "3 or 4 attacks" thread. Especially after reading them since 4E came out; however after you state what's obvious to you, I'll reply in kind.

Knock yourself out.

So by changing the formatting to your proper way, it reads the way you want it to?

Good try, but the proper formatting is the formatting of the power as it is written in the PHB, as opposed to the formatting of the quoted section of text in this thread. By leaving the formatting as it is in the PHB, it places the secondary attack as a result of a hit, resulting in a maximum of four attacks. It reads the way it reads, not the way I want it to.

The only confused people are those who think it's too powerful and not those that read it as written and with command of the english language.

People with a command of the english language should understand the"How to Read a Power" section in the PHB. "Every power includes a "Hit" entry, which explains what happens when an attack roll succeeds." This entire section is part of the "Hit" entry, as indicated in the PHB by the formatting: "Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage. Weapon: If you're wielding a light blade, spear, or flail and have Dexterity 15 or higher, make a secondary attack. Secondary Target: The same or a different target Secondary Attack: Strength vs. AC Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage."

Or, as an aside, you can continue to read the power as written. This is because it's clear you get 2 attacks, and if you have the correct weapon type an aditional secondary attack.
That's not ignoring the formatting, that's looking at it and reading what it says.

Sorry, but you're wrong. There is no way to read that power, as written in the PHB, and read and understand the "How to Read a Power" section of the PHB, and get that answer without ignoring or missing the formatting. Unless, of course, you're deliberately misreading it to get the answer you want, or are just claiming to because you like to argue on the Internet. And, as an aside, your usage of the phrase, "as an aside" indicates that your command (of the english language) has deserted.

And by houseruled version you mean as written, as intended by the designers, and different than your houseruled version.

As written, the power allows two attacks. Each attack hits for 1[W]+STR damage and allows a secondary attack if you are wielding certain weapons. That is a maximum of four attacks. That is how the power reads. I have no houseruled version. Unless you're one of the designers, you don't know the intent. Do you want to post something substantive to back your post, like a quote from a designer, or even a link to a conflicting Customer Service response? I've seen people claim there is a conflicting customer service response, and if so, I'd like to see it.

 

[cjais]

For what it's worth, I agree with your DM about his ruling on Rain of Blows.

I don't care what's proper formatting and indented lines. If RoB allows 4 attacks with the right weapon, I'd like to be convinced how that isn't taking all the choice of picking a 3rd, 7th and 13th level encounter power out of the game.

In other words, can someone explain how a 3rd level encounter power that grants 4 attacks isn't overpowered, and in need of houseruling?

 

[Blackbrrd]

Personally I think they made the power overpowered to make people choose the weapons that lets you potentially have 4 attacks with the power.

Remember that with a standard 55% chance of hitting you will be hitting for 0.55*2 + (0.55*0.55)*2 = 1.7*[1w]+str, something that isn't that impressive?

The power really shines when you have managed to get a massive boost from combat advantage, warlord or cleric buffing, etc, etc because then the damage gets quite a bit higher.

Oh, and you can't choose the same power more than once (phb page 27, 7. powers), so I don't know what you are talking about for level 7 and 13 powers...

So, as I was beginning to say here, for choosing a sub-optimal weapon you get an power you can use once per encounter that does more than average damage for a 3rd level power if you get a massive to-hit bonus. It's not that big a deal, seriously.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Man ... I so wanted to stay out of this thread, but it's got to compelling.

I reckon rain of blows works more or less as MyISPHatesENWorld says, though there is a point that may not be very clear thus far.
Since the Weapon: entry is indented after Hit: (and not Attack: ), a secondary attack only happens if a primary attack hits.
And yes, that's 2-4 attacks.

This is very powerful for a level 3 power, but overpowered?
Compared to most other level 3s, I would say yes.

But, there's a power right under it called sweeping blow.
Place yourself right, and you can get up to 8 attacks (ok, that's highly unlikely ... a reasonable average? say between 2-4?)
And it adds an additional .5xStr mod to your hitroll.
Sure, you can't whack one guy 4 times like rain of blows, but ... there's an additional stat requirement says rain of blows ought to be better, right?

Either way, they're both cheese and make the other 4 PHB fighter 3 powers lame in comparison.

 

[cjais]

Oh, and you can't choose the same power more than once (phb page 27, 7. powers), so I don't know what you are talking about for level 7 and 13 powers...

I didn't explain myself very well there. What I meant was that RoB is strictly superior to other 3rd level encounter powers, other 7th level encounter powers, and pretty much par for the course when compared to 13th level encounter powers. I know you can't take it more than once, but even if it were a 13th level power, people would still rate it high. It's a no-brainer, if you've got the right weapon.

Speaking of which, what do you mean by "suboptimal weapon"? Would you say a Greatspear or Double Sword build is suboptimal?

If the power is not such a big deal, why I have seen players go nuts and whine when their DM makes a different ruling on it than they expected? I've seen entire builds constructed around this one power, and as such, I'd say it's a one-trick pony.

That said, I agree with Danceofmasks that sweeping blow is a pretty hot contender as well. It's just more situational. RoB isn't "all that", but it's a damn sight better than other powers of it level (and above), and as such I wouldn't have a problem if it got errata'ed to 3 attacks, max.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Rain of blows is crazily good, even at 3 attacks. Hesitation slash is meh.

 

[RickVigorous]

You might want to let your DM know that the best official answer regarding rain of blows is that it gives between two and four attacks. See Consolidated Customer Service Answers - Wizards Community. Here's the customer service reply:

Rain of Blows works as follows:

You make two primary attacks against target A that do 1[W] + Str to them.

If you meet the requirements for the secondary attack, you may also make the secondary attacks against target A or target B, which is the same damage as the primary attack. You can one secondary attack per primary attack, so a total of 4 attacks if you meet the requirements.

Even if it's just three attacks, though, rain of blows beats out hesitation slash hands down. The DPR calculations above actually underrate rain of blows, because they leave out crit chances.

 

[GorTeX]

ignore this..I made a reading error

 

[Orcus Porkus]

You might want to let your DM know that the best official answer regarding rain of blows is that it gives between two and four attacks. See Consolidated Customer Service Answers - Wizards Community. Here's the customer service reply:

Even if it's just three attacks, though, rain of blows beats out hesitation slash hands down. The DPR calculations above actually underrate rain of blows, because they leave out crit chances.

The DM is aware of this answer, and we had a discussion yesterday during the game where I played with the 3 attacks house rule.

I'm convinced now more than ever that this power is fine the way it was intended to be. And it's clearly intended to give two primary attacks, and if you have Dex 15 and Spear etc., you can do one follow up attack per successful hit from one of the two primary attacks, so it's 4 attacks max if you are lucky. It's a good power, and definitely the best level 3 encounter power for spear fighters, yes, but on the other hand, spear fighters suffer a lot of draw backs. No special feats like Hammer Rhythm (overpowered!), no high crit (overpowered!), no brutal (overpowered!), and 1d10 max. The evidence why this power is not unbalanced is simple: Do you see all fighters (MC or not) go for a spear build and Dex 15 now to snatch this? No, because they can't afford Dex 15 and prefer a brutal high crit 1d12 axe or hammer. I would say we should all get over this and allow rain of blows as it was written. The boards and all those D&D theorists and DPR calculators don't see the bigger picture where Rain of Blows is just one option out of many that is good. No official errata and FAQ answer has been issued yet, so why should we bother.