D&D 5E What's Divine Smite Worth?

[spectacle]

You completely ignore that a full caster will have higher level spells with more effect for the same number of actions. 5th level throwing an 8d6 fireball and hitting several foes in a single action will probably do more damage than divine smite for the entire rest of the combat. Say it hits four and two save, that's 24d6 (avg 84 dmg). A paladin hits enough to use up his entire selection of spells (6 times), that's 14d8 (avg 54 dmg).

And the caster still has multiple actions more to add to it, even with cantrips. And for the next battle the caster still has spells but the paladin is completely out.

So no, that doesn't hold water when you actually try it out.

I've tried it out many times in my campaign which often have days with only one combat since my adventures tend to have more social and investigative challenges than dungeon crawling, and my experience is that the paladin consistently outshines the other classes, including the full casters. The paladins ability to take down key enemies fast is often more important than the wizard being able to blast a mob with a big fireball.

 

[feartheminotaur]

That's actually a pretty cool ability.

I've been thinking of something similar for a monster I'm building, but couldn't quite come up with a good mechanic. So consider this a *yoink*

 

[Blue]

I've tried it out many times in my campaign which often have days with only one combat since my adventures tend to have more social and investigative challenges than dungeon crawling, and my experience is that the paladin consistently outshines the other classes, including the full casters. The paladins ability to take down key enemies fast is often more important than the wizard being able to blast a mob with a big fireball.

I agree with you. In the case of few-combats-per-day, few-opponent combats (so AoE isn't a big deal), the paladin does shine. I think all of the long-rest-resource-management classes shine more when there are only few combats per day. I play a battlefield control/debuffer abjurer that would absolutely love that situation as well.

Resource management has been part of D&D for ages. 5e has basically at-will, per-short-rest (including X per short rest) and per-long-rest. Falling outside the recommendations (mroe or less combats between short rests, more or less combats between long rests) will change the balance between the classes. That's part of the system as a whole and breaking things up in the different buckets, not the fault of any particular class.

But it's a real issue if the DM runs a lot different than what the classes were balanced against. If you find yourself running many less combats, I think you should make changes for your table to better reflect that. I think your players will be happier for it.

As a side note, check out 13th Age for a different recovery mechanic. It's an OGL that came out about a year before 5e that shares a lot of philosophy. They have basically at-will, per-encounter, and full-heal-up recovery. But just like the DMG rest options that divorce "sleeping overnight" from a long rest, in 13th Age a full-heal-up occurs every 4 combats. So a three week travel across the savanna might only have a single one if there are only 4 combats, and a mega dungeon might have several in the same day.

 

[Sunseeker]

I would probably do something along the lines of the Battlemaster. Give a flat 1d8, but provide some more "magical" effects from it. Perhaps healing maybe some kind of stun or blinding effects. Basically: I'd rob the "at will" attacks from the 4E Paladin for ideas. Simple effects that can be done with a minor bonus to damage.

I don't think Divine Smite can be replaced with any single feature.

 

[LapBandit]

Did anyone propose just increasing the cost of smite based on the number of battles you normally have a day? 1 battle = 3 spell levels, 2 battles = 2 spell levels, 3+ = 1 spell level? Straightforward.

I personally tend toward small skirmishes and two medium or one big fight so smites they way they are balanced are perfect. I also often use waves of combatants and the PCs have to make educated guesses about expending resources.

 

[steeldragons]

Did anyone propose just increasing the cost of smite based on the number of battles you normally have a day? 1 battle = 3 spell levels, 2 battles = 2 spell levels, 3+ = 1 spell level? Straightforward.

I personally tend toward small skirmishes and two medium or one big fight so smites they way they are balanced are perfect. I also often use waves of combatants and the PCs have to make educated guesses about expending resources.

How are you supposed to know how many combats you're having in a day...before you have them?

 

[Faenor]

The # combats/day thing is ridiculous. Leomunds is a 3rd level spell that can be cast as a ritual and completely breaks that. So you say it only lasts 8 hours, and you can only benefit from one rest every 24 hours? Just 're-cast it and sit back down. What about wandering monsters - just pile up an army outside the leomunds to attack when it drops. Some situations ok, but wilderness or tombs where the undead or constructs are guardians. And in the situations that it does work, those wanderers are going to be around to attack whether you are sitting still or not. There just starts to be a real breakdown in the logic and feels like you are punishing the players for a perfectly reasonable use of a design features of the game.

 

[feartheminotaur]

How are you supposed to know how many combats you're having in a day...before you have them?

Duh. Magic!

 

[LapBandit]

How are you supposed to know how many combats you're having in a day...before you have them?

Should have quoted the person a few posts up who said they have one combat per day and smite breaks that. I was proposing it for them, where they know A Priori that they will have only X number a day. I'm not saying that's reasonable or advocating for it, just proposing the fix to end the conversation.

 

[Psikerlord#]

I've tried it out many times in my campaign which often have days with only one combat since my adventures tend to have more social and investigative challenges than dungeon crawling, and my experience is that the paladin consistently outshines the other classes, including the full casters. The paladins ability to take down key enemies fast is often more important than the wizard being able to blast a mob with a big fireball.

This is also my experience. Vengeance paladin is the most OP, since they can make their own adv exactly when they need that big spike dmg on the BBEG or whoever, and operate with no real meaningful code restrictions on conduct (well, unless taken to an extreme, in which case a vengeance paladin should really drag their party into a TPK early game).