D&D 5E What's Divine Smite Worth?

[trentonjoe]

So either replace it with a ......power/ability that would emulate a "... Aura of Protection" level of power.

That's what I am leaning to. My group is "down" on the Paladin because smite is REALLY good at our table and we are looking for an attractive way to encourage players to NOT SMITE and/or use their spells.

The problem I have is that SMITE is kind of an outlier in the game and doesn't follow the rules neatly so I can't find an exactly perfect exchange. I now just want to use the rule of cool but am struggling coming up with that as well.

I would like it to be something defensive in nature, "like all attacks versus allies in a 10'radius" are made with disadvantage.

 

[steeldragons]

I dont' really see it as that much of an outlier. Practically every "non-full caster" class has a low level "add damage to the attack."

Divine Smite is a LOT (2d8 radiant) of damage. Granted. But it also is at the cost of a spell slot...so it's not endless.

Tempest Clerics (at 1st level, no less!) do 2d8 extra lightning or thunder damage.

Light Clerics (at 2nd, so the same as Divine Smite) deal 2d10 + cleric level[!] radiant extra...this costs them a Channel, so a bit more limited than Divine Smite.

What you're looking for sounds like something that could be comparable to the Light Cleric's "Warding Flare" (use a reaction to impose disadvantage on 1 attacker -attacking you- you can see within 30') would be a nice fit...just extend it to all attackers within a 30' radius -attacking either just you (what I would probably go with) or against all allies within 10' radius?..and cost the paladin a spell slot....or all attackers within a 20' radius +10' per spell slot over 1st.

 

[Faenor]

One thing that helps balance ds is the paladin hybrid nature. That is, because paladins need to balance strength and charisma stats, and they must melee hit to ds, then they won't hit as often as a fighter would because of lower to hit bonus. This works well in a point buy campaign with low or sub optimal magic items rewards, but not so much with fudged rolled stats and belts of giant str. So why not go low charisma paladin? Because you lose in auras and spellsave dc, the former being a significant part of the class power.

 

[feartheminotaur]

If it were my game and my players asked me?

I'd replace Divine Smite with Divine Ward (similar to the Arcane/Projected Ward of the abjurer). It is a no-action ability powered by spell slots (similar to Divine Smite). Really, you're trading "decrease bad guy hit points" for "increasing good guy hit points", which, IME, is roughly the same.

Divine Ward: Starting at 2nd level, you can create an aura of divine magic around yourself for protection.

When you hit an enemy with a melee weapon attack, you can simultaneously expend one paladin spell slot create a divine ward on yourself that lasts until you finish a long rest. The ward gains hit points equal to 2d8 for a 1st level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than first, to a maximum of 5d8. The hit point total of the ward is limited only by the number of paladin spell slots available to fuel it.

Whenever you take damage, the ward takes the damage instead. Your melee weapon attacks do an additional 1d8 damage versus an undead or fiend while the Ward is active [OR: If the damage is from an undead or fiend, you may reduce the damage by an additional 1d8 before subtracting damage from the ward]

If this damage reduces the ward to 0 hit points you take any remaining damage. While the ward has 0 hit points it cannot absorb damage, but its magic remains. You may recharge the ward at any time by expending one paladin spell slot of 1st level or higher. When you do so the ward gains hit points equal to 2d8 for a 1st level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than first, to a maximum of 5d8. Once you create a ward, you can't create it again until you finish a long rest.

Starting at 6th level, when a creature you can see takes damage, you can user your reaction to cause your Ward to absorb that damage. If this damage reduces the ward to 0 hit points, you, not the target creature, take any remaining damage.

 

[Ganymede81]

Show me paladins staying competitive over reasonably built characters and you'll convince me.

Dude, I really have no interest in convincing you of anything, and couldn't care less how this impacts your character build.

I was just spitballing ideas with another person in the thread, that's it. I'm not a WOTC game designer nor your DM, so you really have nothing to worry about. You've devoted multiple paragraphs to this so far, but please take the hint: I am not interested in discussing your glaive-wielding paladin.

 

[Faenor]

One thing that helps balance ds is the paladin hybrid nature. That is, because paladins need to balance strength and charisma stats, and they must melee hit to ds, then they won't hit as often as a fighter would because of lower to hit bonus. This works well in a point buy campaign with low or sub optimal magic items rewards, but not so much with fudged rolled stats and belts of giant str. So why not go low charisma paladin? Because you lose in auras and spellsave dc, the former being a significant part of the class power.

Err, well, point buy can get you 15s in your primary stats, but then you fall behind in later levels when you have to balance your ability score improvements. Also have to make a painful choice about dex/wis for saves. Basically, cha is a crappy stat for a combat focused class.

 

[Xeviat]

The "problem" with Divine Smite isn't the amount of damage it gives per spell-slot; that's pretty comparable to a first level spells (3d8+3). The "activated on a hit" is pretty comparable to "half damage on save". The "problem" is that a 5th level paladin can dump spell slots quickly, twice per round (or maybe 3 times per round if they went for TWFing, which I wouldn't recommend until level 11 anyway). It shakes up the action economy.

Changing Divine Smite to work like the other smite spells, bonus action plus concentration, would be more "fair" in my eyes, except that I like Divine Smite being a class ability. I'd rather see Hex and Hunter's Mark as class abilities as well, so that it's obvious that the Ranger's spell slots are meant to add to their combat damage if they want them to (the warlock doesn't have this issue, so it's less of a thing there for me).

 

[Blue]

Dude, I really have no interest in convincing you of anything, and couldn't care less how this impacts your character build.

I was just spitballing ideas with another person in the thread, that's it. I'm not a WOTC game designer nor your DM, so you really have nothing to worry about. You've devoted multiple paragraphs to this so far, but please take the hint: I am not interested in discussing your glaive-wielding paladin.

Funny for someone not interested in discussing, you consistently try to make it seem it's about one character instead of that being just one example of the whole issue about bonus action economy and additional attacks. Been brought up multiple times, you refuse to address it even though you'll reply. I posted numbers and asked for similar proof, instead you back pedal that you aren't trying to convince me after replying several times to me. Okay, I'll take you at your word. Have a good day.

 

[Ganymede81]

Err, well, point buy can get you 15s in your primary stats, but then you fall behind in later levels when you have to balance your ability score improvements. Also have to make a painful choice about dex/wis for saves. Basically, cha is a crappy stat for a combat focused class.

Did you just reply to yourself?

 

[jgsugden]

People referenced the answer: Don't change the ability, just limit how often they can use it. If it were a spell, the damage per spell level is not ridiculous - for a single target spell it would be considered low, even. However, when you get to spam it so often and then recharge it by resting, it gets overpowered. Give them more combats each day before they rest and they won't be able to spam it so often.

Additionally, the ability is at the strongest at the lower levels. As the PCs advance, it loses some luster as the damage per slot becomes a bit less efficient.

All that being said, I'd have just given paladins the following always active ability rather than the pseudo spell:

* You gain a Smite Value = Charisma Modifier + Your Paladin Level
* If an opponent has your Smite Value or less in hps after damage from your melee attack is calculated, you can smite the enemy. A smited enemy dies or is knocked unconscious (your choice).

Example, 10th level Paladin with a 16 Charisma has a 13 Smite Value. He attacks an opponent with 27 hps and deals 15. That reduces the enemy to 12 hp which is beneath the Smite Value - so the paladin has the option to kill them or knock them unconscious.

EDIT: Thinking more on the idea, I think I'd give each Paladin Vow a different benefit that triggers off of a smite taking an enemy down - Temp hps, a move bonus, advantage on the next attack, etc...