D&D 5E What's on your psionics wishlist for 5E?

[steeldragons]

By this argument, sorcerers and warlocks are also wastes of time. Druids and clerics as well. They're all just using magic...doing what magic does with variations on fluff and mechanics. By your rationale, D&D needs to return to a single "magic-user" class and nothing else.

I don't think that is likely to happen.

 

[Eirikrautha]

While I don't doubt there will be Psionic feats, after all, Magic Initiate exists, I don't really want to see the return of feat chains.

Agreed. Psionics does not need to be "chained" in order to be constructed as feats. Each feat could give you different abilities (see the attacks/defenses of 1e).

 

[Eirikrautha]

By this argument, sorcerers and warlocks are also wastes of time. Druids and clerics as well. They're all just using magic...doing what magic does. By your rationale,D&D needs to return to a single "magic-user" class and nothing else.

I don't think that is likely to happen.

Not at all, warlocks are mechanically different than wizards, and each can do things the others can't (and not just based on which spells they know). Class abilities make the difference. I don't see the space that is open for psionics to do different things as a class, without simply copying an already existing set f class abilities. I'd love to see this (which is why I suggested psionics as "the 'net" in Shadowrun, to give it its own space). But I haven't seen anything that isn't "magic-user called psionic" in the suggestions yet...

 

[steeldragons]

Not at all, warlocks are mechanically different than wizards, and each can do things the others can't (and not just based on which spells they know). Class abilities make the difference. I don't see the space that is open for psionics to do different things as a class, without simply copying an already existing set f class abilities. I'd love to see this (which is why I suggested psionics as "the 'net" in Shadowrun, to give it its own space). But I haven't seen anything that isn't "magic-user called psionic" in the suggestions yet...

Sorry. YOu responded before I could edit to include the "various mechanics and fluff" bit. That's all every class is. So, why don't you see how a psychic class could do the same? Some features that might overlap and something that is "the Psyhic thang", a la Barbarians Rage, Druids Shapeshift & Nature Magic, Monks Ki stuff, Warlocks At Wills & Invocations, etc...

Why is that not something you think can be done/warranted? Hell, they did it with Sorcerer and just duplicated the arcane spell lists (for 3 editions but at least this time they pared it down).

What about, like, they get a list of powers with their devotions/disciplines/subclass specialty what have yous, and then all psychics have some kind of separate "Mental Combat" mechanics for their mental stabbing/jabbing/'raising shields' and all that with other psychics/psionic creatures? Only the Psychic class gets this. Only they can combat creatures, directly, from any location, on "the Mental/Astral/Dream Planes." That's their...unique class thing.

Does that, then, warrant them as a class? Plus their Detect Thoughts, Clairvoyance, Telekinesis powers (that can be duplicated by others through spellcasting).

 

[I'm A Banana]

Because that means you cant have psionics until 4th level, then just get crappy ones. You get your next power at 8th level.

If powers aren't spells, then they're not limited to just discrete 1/day effects. A psionic feat could let someone read minds at will, or gain a force-field like AC, or manifest blades of psychic energy, or allow them to heighten their speed. There's no reason these effects need to be small or crappy.

Having psionics from level 1 is a more critical problem of handling them via feats, but not an insurmountable one. A "psionic character" option might let you swap out a race's +2 to an ability score (or +1 to two) for a psychic feat (since they're they roughly balanced with that swap anyway). A little variant on what has come before, but not totally alien to the system, and it has the virtue of being independent of the straightjacket of a class.

That's just adding more crap on the wizard, which gets too much versatility and toys as it stands.

Adding additional subclasses adds precisely bupkiss to an individual character's versatility. An Evoker isn't going to be able to grab what a Kineticist can get.

Not to mention it royally destroys the way the Dark Sun campaign is written, which is based around tangible differences between psionics and magic (ie, they do different things and more important, differently. Psionics is much more limited, magic is vast but destroys the world).

That's a trait of Dark Sun, of course, not a trait of psionics and magic in general. As far as 5e in general is concerned, there's not even a real difference between arcane and divine magic (following 4e's "everything is a power" motif), so Hypothetical Dark Sun 5e is already going to have to specify how a cure wounds spell cast by a bard is different from one cast by a cleric (if it is?). Most simply, that would be by giving a Defiling ability to certain classes/subclasses/as a feat/etc., rather than proscribing what can be a class or subclass.

You may as well make clerics "healing wizards", rogues "skill fighters", and do away with every class except fighter and wizard. If rangers, paladins and bards, which are just pre-fab multiclass combos, deserve their own class, psions deserve it much more.

Debatable. You could also say if a warlord and an assassin and an eldritch knight and a skald and an arcane trickster are all subclasses, why shouldn't "I use psychic magic" be a subclass? What makes a class isn't an objective threshold of merit, but rather a consideration of what character archetypes the game wants to support. There is a case to be made that "I hone my mind to focus psychic energy" and "I train my mind to hold arcane formula" (or "I focus my body and mind on the arts of combat" and "I focus my body and mind on the control of psychic energy") aren't greatly distinct character archetypes. The difference needs to be deeper than aesthetics.

The goal here isn't utter simplification, of course, it's rather to only add the complexity necessary for the realization of the archetype, and not just splurge on a half-dozen new classes just because people want to write a new synonym for "magic-user" down on their character sheets. You'll have to be more than "I use points and call my spells powers!" to achieve subclass escape velocity. They deserve it much more? Lets show that. What's the mechanical distinction in a normal campaign between a wizard using spell points and a psionicist class?

 

[Dragonhelm]

I'm making my own bucket list based on the original poster's list, because there was a lot of good stuff there.

• Power points!
• Psion class (with six subclasses, "psionic disciplines");
• Soulknife subclass for monk;
• Psychic warrior subclass for fighters;
• Kalashtar PC race;
• Thri-Kreen PC race;
• A crystal race - preferably not the shardmind, but if it has to be, give it decent art;
• Psionic mindflayers;
• Wild Talents (maybe a feat grants bonus powers and power points to use them);
• Psicrystals;
• Advice for adapting psionics to fit a variety of genres (i.e. high fantasy, horror, Oriental Adventures, etc.)
• Gem Dragons!!!

 

[Eirikrautha]

What about, like, they get a list of powers with their devotions/disciplines/subclass specialty what have yous, and then all psychics have some kind of separate "Mental Combat" mechanics for their mental stabbing/jabbing/'raising shields' and all that with other psychics/psionic creatures? Only the Psychic class gets this. Only they can combat creatures, directly, from any location, on "the Mental/Astral/Dream Planes." That's their...unique class thing.

Does that, then, warrant them as a class? Plus their Detect Thoughts, Clairvoyance, Telekinesis powers (that can be duplicated by others through spellcasting).

OK, now we're getting somewhere. I must have done a better job explaining myself and my objections, because now we are talking about the same things. Let's say that we get a list of "powers" for a psionic, a list of psionic "abilities" (your detect thoughts, etc.) and psionic "combat."

First, I would posit that the abilities (that do the same things as spells) wouldn't enter into the discussion, as they are flavor changes. A psionic wizard/sorcerer/etc., is a clairvoyant because they can mentally cast true-seeing. Flavor. A fighter might be a kineticist because he can't true-see (no spells). Flavor.

As for Psionic combat, that would be a universal game mechanic. It would exist regardless of whatever classes existed (much like "concentration" is still a thing, even if all of your party plays martials). It is a way to resolve situations, not a class mechanic.

So we get to the psionic powers. Why do you need a class for these? The rest of the "psionicist" is achievable without needing a class. So why does this one set of things need a class to back it up? I'm not sold that feats or other add-ons aren't enough.

That's my argument. Psionics needs to be more than a reflavoring, and there's not enough room in game-space (unless there is a whole new space opened up via mechanics) for a full class or set of classes. I still think psionics (as has been described by others so far) is not much more than SLAs, so why not treat psionics as that (via feats/backgrounds/racials/etc.)?

In order to sell me, I'm going to need to see a concrete example of a psionic power that has its own game-space. One that isn't just reflavored magic. Then a class starts to be more feasible (though there's still the feat hurdle to overcome)...

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

A cleric is a "healing" wizard (or sorcerer, more closely) that wears armor. The divine/arcane divide is a mechanical invention designed to encourage build diversity and flavor (If the wizard could heal, why play a cleric? If the cleric can cast all wizard spells, why play a wizard?). Where they separate is not in their magic, but in their class abilities and restrictions.

The "different" way that psionics does things in Dark Sun is just flavor. You could do it mechanically with "spell-slots" or spell-based power points and it would be exactly the same. Which is what I don't want.

No, it really isnt, as you yourself admit you aren't familiar with the setting. With arcane (wizard) magic, you have to choose to be a preserver or defiler, and there are quite specific mechanics on the way preservers cast vs. defilers. Defilers are quick and obvious, and in a setting where magic is illegal and reviled, that will get you killed quickly. Preservers take longer to cast, but at least aren't obvious, and are less likely to be lynched. But hey, that's the tradeoff for being an overpowered wizard, who gets the repick their game breaking abilities after a nap.

The psion is locked into their choices and generally uses them less frequently due to how slow PSP's scale with level compared to spell slots. But that's the safer option, they cant be shut down as easily as magic, are hard to detect etc. There's also how psionic attack and defense modes work/interact, establishing tangets to initiate mental effects and many other areas where its not just "spells with psudiscientific names". So not only was the fluff different, the mechanics were distinct enough to warrant actual page count (vs a lame refluff of an existing class). If you could do everything as a psion that you could as a wizard, no one would play a wizard, and you'd lose out on a significant aspect of the campaign.

We get it, you don't value the role of psionics in D&D. Refluffing the sorcerer/wizard and magical initiate feat takes no effort and satisfies you. So yay, you got your version already. But it doesnt for psionic/Dark Sun fans. 4E suffered from making every class essentially use the same mechanics, limiting the distinct feel of each class. Lets avoid that with 5E. There are ways to diversify the classes and inject unique mechanics without giving in entirely to the god awful spreadsheet math of 3rd edition.

My ideal psion would essentially work like Mage the Ascension, with "levels" of clairsentience, telekinesis, body manipulation etc. Lists of suggested effects/pre-requisites and a more free form approach to adjudicating using their powers vs the rote and concrete approach of "this one spell does this one thing". The character is strongly locked in their themes, as opposed to the standard vancian caster random grab bag of whatever they decide to memorize that day. The character should essentially play like a street level superhero, with short rest recharge PSP's powering the bigger effects and power applications. This preserves the Dark Sun campaign, and makes it worth publishing in the first place. We can refluff on our own without paying for a pointless splat. If they're going to publish anything, it may as well be unique and interesting to justify its existence.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Defilers are quick and obvious, and in a setting where magic is illegal and reviled, that will get you killed quickly. Preservers take longer to cast, but at least aren't obvious, and are less likely to be lynched. But hey, that's the tradeoff for being an overpowered wizard, who gets the repick their game breaking abilities after a nap.

The psion is locked into their choices and generally uses them less frequently due to how slow PSP's scale with level compared to spell slots. But that's the safer option, they cant be shut down as easily as magic, are hard to detect etc

So this describes how they were in 2e, presumably.

And if the effect we want is a psion who only uses a few, powerful abilities a handful of times each day, we might be able to hinge a class on that structure.

It's worth examining if we want that effect, though. The 3e and 4e and OD&D and 1e psionics were not like this, and it would involve a character who is more "paper tiger" than the wizard is currently. I'm not sure it's a good idea to enhance the swinginess much further.

We get it, you don't value the role of psionics in D&D. Refluffing the sorcerer/wizard and magical initiate feat takes no effort and satisfies you. So yay, you got your version already. But it doesnt for psionic/Dark Sun fans.

Lets not presume to speak for entire categories of people, here. It can work for psionic/Dark Sun fans. It basically works for me, and I am a fan of both psionics and DS.

My ideal psion would essentially work like Mage the Ascension, with "levels" of clairsentience, telekinesis, body manipulation etc. Lists of suggested effects/pre-requisites and a more free form approach to adjudicating using their powers vs the rote and concrete approach of "this one spell does this one thing". The character is strongly locked in their themes, as opposed to the standard vancian caster random grab bag of whatever they decide to memorize that day. The character should essentially play like a street level superhero, with short rest recharge PSP's powering the bigger effects and power applications.

That idea has some meat on its bones (rather than duplicate spells, a psionic ability is a broad, customizable tool), and though there's some potential overlap with feats, there's probably enough room for a class like that as well. I'd be a little concerned about complexity levels, but there's potential there.

 

[Spykes]

In order to sell me, I'm going to need to see a concrete example of a psionic power that has its own game-space. One that isn't just reflavored magic. Then a class starts to be more feasible (though there's still the feat hurdle to overcome)...

Abilities that should have been unique to psionics have been flavored as magical and they have now become accepted as magical powers. This works because the powers are fundamental and wizards are a cardinal class and you can technically justify that effect through tapping into the Weave. You will probably say this is only flavor, and you would be right. But I contend that FLAVOR MATTERS! Why? Because by considering flavor we get to use our imagination to effect how the power might behave differently. This is very important to understand and is the reason I think you are missing the desire of others to have a Psionicist.

A simple illustration would be the current Monk: Disciple of the Elements. They can use Ki. Ki is not magic, it is simply "mystical energy". By using Ki, they can use powers that mimic spells so closely, that they are just given the spell to cast as told what the flavor is. I'm not a big fan of this method. Other powers they have, such as Fangs of the Fire Snake, allow the Monk to do things not described by a spell using Ki. This is fun! The Monk Shadow Step ability also allows them to mimic Misty Step, but not exactly. It behaves a little differently. So does this mean that the monk should just be considered a melee Wizard?

The flavor, that the power originates from inside the Psion and not externally, DOES MATTER and it will effect the behavior of the powers. Why does it need to be its own class and not just a set of feats? Because the Psion represents a person who has devoted their life to being the best at that ability. They are better at mental attacks than anyone else and therefore are able to do things that other people can't do just because they decided to take a feat.

******The main thing that sets psionics apart from arcane magic is the ability to augment the power.****** To change the basic way that a power behaves relative to the amount of mental energy you apply. This is vastly different than casting at a higher level. A Sorcerer comes close to this by using Metamagic, which I love, but that's not changing the behavior of the unique spell itself, just the properties of the spell casting, such as range, etc... It's a subtle but real difference.

An example? How about the spell, Crown of Madness? This is a 2nd level spell that can be cast by Wizards, Sorcerers and Warlocks. It's an Enchantment spell and does the same thing regardless of what class I use to cast it. Why? Because it is what it is. An enchantment spell that someone wrote down or memorized the words to and every time it is cast, it does the exact same thing. (That's flavor by the way) Compare that to the Psionic power, Betrayal, from 4th ed. If the power is used normally, it does basically the same thing as CoM. However, if the psion applies more mental energy in the form of Power Points, he can intensify his control over the monster and make it attack more viciously doing more damage. If he increases the amount of mental energy even more, he can further increase the amount of damage and also cause the creature to be dazed afterwards, rendering the monster useless for a round. It could be further expanded to also do psychic damage to the attacking monster. In fact, you could use your imagination to flavor all kinds of augmented changes to how the power behaves. I can envision guidelines in the Psionics Manual on how to design your own augmentations. So cool! You cannot do this with spells other than to create new spells and it's what makes Psionics unique. Those behaviors are unique to that specific power because it is not a created spell. It is mental power specifically applied and must be addressed based on the specific ability. It doesn't require components. It doesn't require a spellbook and it doesn't have to be memorized. It is simply mental energy used at varying degrees of intensity and the effect of that intensity must be defined on an individual basis.

Additionally, if you want to make a Saving Throw vs. the power, it would probably be a different type of Save. While CoM is a Wisdom save, the Psychic attacks might be an Intelligence save. Intelligence saves are fairly rare, so there is an opportunity again for Psionics to have a place.

The obvious conclusion here is that to achieve what I'm talking about with augmentations will require tons of development time in each and every Psionic power. I agree, but it doesn't have to be as bad as it sounds. It can be done by defining a few Major Sciences/Disciplines that we all know to be the archetypal psionic powers such as psychometabolism, psychokinesis, shapers, etc... Once those are defined along with some base powers, the real development and time will need to be spent in creating augmentations. This path is endless and will allow for tons of creativity and opportunity for the Psionicist to be very unique without being overpowered.