D&D 4E What's so bad about 4th edition? What's so good about other systems?

[Oldtimer]

If that keeps you all warm and fuzzy inside then you believe what you want.

Oh, thank you kind Sir! I didn't know that dissenting views were acceptable.

Patronise much?

 

[Dannager]

People talk about paragon tier being more about interplanar stuff or whatever, but it's all just a smoke screen as the monster math and level system mean you can do it at any level.

Don't forget that planar travel rituals only start showing up in Paragon tier.

 

[Pentius]

I see p42 as a pretty weak solution to a lot of improve issues. I use DMG2's recommendations about terrain powers and whatnot.

The main issue with p42 is when you use it to grant players powers they don't otherwise have access to while those who have them are at the table.

"You mean if I want to shift multiple squares I can just use my acrobatics skill and move over them? Why did I bother taking this tumble utility power? If the DC is low enough for the fighter to have just done it, I'm never going to fail."

That's a paraphrase of one of the players at the table. They like the 4E combat as it is and don't want their system choices invalidated by p42 improv moves.

Then you find yourself having to just a little bit careful when making rulings on the fly, which is the norm for rulings on the fly. I wouldn't call page 42 perfect, but it beats the pants off of any other improv advice I've seen. But my point wasn't to pimp page 42, but to promote making the fiction more than color, so terrain powers work.

Did that at level 1. Just level down the creatures so that the attack, damage, defenses, etc., are all level appropriate. Try it. The game works for any story setting at any level. That's one of the features that I used to think was what I wanted out of an rpg.

People talk about paragon tier being more about interplanar stuff or whatever, but it's all just a smoke screen as the monster math and level system mean you can do it at any level.

Except that the monsters aren't the point of interplanar travel. The Feywild isn't just a shinier place to fight on level monsters. It's a deep, impenetrable forest with shifting terrain and mighty fey lords that will have to be bargained with, not killed. The Shadowfell isn't just the local mall from Dawn of the Dead, where you can kill zombies half off. It's a plane of eternal gloom where you think you're safe by entering the city of Gloomwrought, only to find that the very streets are alive in a terrifying sense, the dead rise immediately unless powerful magics are in play, and the bay is deep and black as tar.

If you know that you're going to make balanced encounters, then the monsters themselves shouldn't really be the point of the adventure. Use them as a vehicle for storytelling and conflict resolution that your players just so happen to love.

You do know that time doesn't pass for fictional characters right? That I could just as easily put the game on hold and come back to it?

Of course I know that But I also know that, in my experience, putting a campaign on hold tends to actually mean "We're ending it but don't want to admit it." And then it's always a little sad because the story just stopped with no real attempt at an ending. Turning everyone to stone at least gives some sort of end, and if you restart it, you have the PCs owing one NPC a debt, and some medusae a sword edge. Pre-made hooks.

Also, it was a strong post ending. I mean, come on.

Come on.

 

[nnms]

Except that the monsters aren't the point of interplanar travel. The Feywild isn't just a shinier place to fight on level monsters. It's a deep, impenetrable forest with shifting terrain and mighty fey lords that will have to be bargained with, not killed. The Shadowfell isn't just the local mall from Dawn of the Dead, where you can kill zombies half off. It's a plane of eternal gloom where you think you're safe by entering the city of Gloomwrought, only to find that the very streets are alive in a terrifying sense, the dead rise immediately unless powerful magics are in play, and the bay is deep and black as tar.

And what part of that is level dependent? Nothing. In my current campaign, the setting is one the players get to build as they go. They have tons of buy in and setting atmosphere because they've really taken ownership of it. I've also run a level 1 campaign set in the abyss, a dark sun game, and other strange games. Planar travel is cool and all, but it's the same descriptive techniques used for any setting that makes it good. And player buy in. That always helps.

Of course I know that But I also know that, in my experience, putting a campaign on hold tends to actually mean "We're ending it but don't want to admit it." And then it's always a little sad because the story just stopped with no real attempt at an ending. Turning everyone to stone at least gives some sort of end, and if you restart it, you have the PCs owing one NPC a debt, and some medusae a sword edge. Pre-made hooks.

Also, it was a strong post ending. I mean, come on.

Come on.

Good point, of course. I should have put a smiley on my last post. On hold usually is an unspoken "it's over."

 

[nnms]

So I had a session of Savage Worlds with my 4E group set in the same campaign world. They had been on the edge of war with a city state ruled by dragonborn and kobolds. So for this one-off they played members of the resistance who had to assassinate a diplomat or the military might of the city states would be combined against the human kingdom.

We had 10 combats in 4 hours. I heard Savage Worlds was fast, but wow I didn't know it could be that fast. The party could split and I was able to keep the action going for everyone regardless of where they were.

The group had fun. I'd say even more than 4E. By the end, half of them were standing up at the table watching die rolls and cheering as a human street tough sacrificed his life to kill the dragonborn prince. They started fires in one of the quarters of the city on fire and started a riot. They infiltrated the keep and slew the dragonborn who were negotiating a military alliance that would have been disastrous for both the resistance and the kingdom their 4E PCs run.

One player agreed to take over DMing the 4E game every second week (I'll be playing in it) and the other weekends will be Savage World games.

 

[nnms]

Don't forget that planar travel rituals only start showing up in Paragon tier.

True. So without house rules/hand wavium, the planar travel ends up being on the DM side rather than the player side.

 

[technoextreme]

The main issue with p42 is when you use it to grant players powers they don't otherwise have access to while those who have them are at the table.

"You mean if I want to shift multiple squares I can just use my acrobatics skill and move over them? Why did I bother taking this tumble utility power? If the DC is low enough for the fighter to have just done it, I'm never going to fail."

That's a paraphrase of one of the players at the table. They like the 4E combat as it is and don't want their system choices invalidated by p42 improv moves.

You do realize that its a standard action to do those moves. Typically if a skill can do something that a power can do then the power is always the best choice because you loose your standard action.

 

[pemerton]

Play up your fiction, play down your mechanical descriptions. Don't just play up the fiction with description and dialogue, do it with situation.

<snip>

Feeling like the fiction doesn't inform the system or the outcome enough in combat? Let it. Your monsters can use page 42, too.

I wish that the DMGs for 4e had more of this sort of advice. There's no reason why this couldn't be covered in the same loving detail as is the tactical dimension of encounter building.

The main issue with p42 is when you use it to grant players powers they don't otherwise have access to while those who have them are at the table.

I agree that the GM has to be careful with this. I think that skill powers are, on the whole, well designed in this respect, in that they do stuff that I don't think page 42 on its own would really allow for.

One way I try to balance page 42 is to impose damage, or at least the risk of damage, as a consequence of the tricky manoeuvre.

I think this is another part of the game where more GMing advice would help.

People talk about paragon tier being more about interplanar stuff or whatever, but it's all just a smoke screen as the monster math and level system mean you can do it at any level.

My take on 4e is that the allocation of monsters to levels is mostly not a mechanical thing (although it has some elements of that eg where stun, dominate, blindness etc become more common) but a story thing. Playing a campaign using the monsters as published will take the PCs through the "story of D&D" (start with kobolds, finish with Orcus).

Because I'm running a single campaign, I haven't yet had to find out how badly this affects replay value.

 

[nnms]

My take on 4e is that the allocation of monsters to levels is mostly not a mechanical thing (although it has some elements of that eg where stun, dominate, blindness etc become more common) but a story thing. Playing a campaign using the monsters as published will take the PCs through the "story of D&D" (start with kobolds, finish with Orcus).

Because I'm running a single campaign, I haven't yet had to find out how badly this affects replay value.

Fortunately, you can always reskin everything and if you run another campaign, they don't have to do the kobolds to orcus thing. The only thing that changes with higher level monsters is the amount of status effects and their severtiy increases. But this increases alongside an increase in the availability of saving throw and effect mitigating feats, item powers, utilities, etc.,.

So if you decided to only take high paragon or epic monsters and level them down to level 2-5, for the first half of heroic tier, you'd be playing a game that's pretty much like playing the normal levels where the players didn't choose any of the feats/powers/items that gave them status effect saves and bonuses. It'll work fine, you'll just have more stunning, petrification, etc., that will have to be watched out for.

As I've maintained all along, everything I currently don't like is a feature of the game that has simply lost its luster.

 

[pemerton]

As I've maintained all along, everything I currently don't like is a feature of the game that has simply lost its luster.

I haven't read the whole thread - only the last few pages of it - but what you say here came through to me pretty clearly.