What's so Hard About Grappling?

[xechnao]

Treat a grappling attempt as a normal attack: -by next round you are considered flat-footed unless you succeed in which case you and your target can only exchange unarmed attacks (a small weapon can be used but your adversary gets a bonus in his AC or his attacks-he decides).

If you fail two consequtive attack attempts the target breaks free. Note that you should always opt to attack -if you do not the target gets freed immediately. You can opt to do subdue damage or no HP damage at all (even harder than subduing).

The target may also opt to attack your reflex defense and if he succeeds he breaks free.

If in one round the target causes more HP damage than your constitution and you lose your next attack he breaks free too.

If you get-are bloodied and lose just one attack the target also breaks free.

Against an equally sized target on a 20 you get backstab attack damage multiplier. The smaller the target the greater his chance -that is if you are fighting against one target that is three size categories larger than you, you backstab on a 17-20.

Smaller targets can also use bigger sized weapons with penalties relative to size difference. For example a small target against a normal target can use a small weapon without a penalty, a normal target against a huge target can use a medium weapon without a penalty, etch.


EDIT: if you like grappling feats, the 3.5 ones are not appropriate with this system. If you are interested in this system say so and we can work some appropriate grappling feats.


EDIT2: This system perhaps better named hand-to-hand rather than grappling. If you can consider grappling to be just a hand-to-hand situation and you do not want to expand on things like special moves such as specific locks, chokes etch then this system IMO is good for you.

 

[fnwc]

I could see the halfing not being able to pin the Hill Giant, but shouldn't the little guy have a pretty decent chance defensively?.

I think you're allowed to use your Escape Artist check in lieu of a grapple check to escape a pin/grapple, with a standard action. Nothing exists for the initial grapple, though.

 

[xnrdcorex]

Wow, way to not cover all the rules of grappling at all. Which is exactly why its so complicated.

First of all, if the AoO hits your touch fails.
Then there are the rules of:
1)casting spells,
)moving people in the grapple,
3)using natural weapons,
4)regular weapons
5)actual damage dice being dealt
6)entering their square
7)breaking the grapple
8)escape artist can be a replacement to your grapple modifier
9)casting spells in the grapple, touch or otherwise
10)pinning in the grapple
11)what can and cannot be done while pinned in a grapple
12)what happens to people who are attacked while grappling
13)who can attack those outside a grapple
14)those in a grapple with multiple attacks
15)those in a grapple with multiple natural attacks
The list goes on and your argument falls flat.

 

[fnwc]

I find there aren't many ways to be prepared for grappling. Max STR, max Escape Artist, figure out a size modifier (Enlarge, etc), then get Freedom of Movement. There are a couple non-core feats, but that's a pretty limited set.

Take Close-Quarters Fighting (mostly for melee types) from the Complete Warrior. Basically, you get an AoO when a creature attempts to grapple, even if the creature has Improved Grapple or an ability that lets its start a grapple without an AoO. If you cause damage on your AoO, the Grapple attempt automatically fails unless the attacker has Improved Grapple or a similar ability. In this case, add you damage to the initial grapple check to see if the creature starts its grapple.

Of course, this leads to weird rules that Celebrim has already mentioned:

My basic problem with Improved Grab is my problem with many similar 3E rules - it's too absolute. Instead of giving the monster a relative bonus, it gives an absolute bonus - it never draws an AoO when attempting a grapple.

Which leads to things like this:

Improved Grab: You don't draw an AoO when starting a grapple.
Improved Grab Defence: Yes, you do.
Improveder Grab: No, you don't.
Improveder Grab Defence: Oh yes, you do.
Improvedest Grab...

"I use my anti-anti!"...

 

[Larrin]

Then there are the rules of:

1)casting spells,
*SNIP BY LARRIN*
14)those in a grapple with multiple attacks
15)those in a grapple with multiple natural attacks

This is the list where my problems arise, because keeping all of these little rules in the head is tough to do for many people. I can remember that spell casting is limited to ones without gestures and only with components you get in your hand, but i don't remember if you can gets things from your spellpouch with a grapple check. Can i only attack with light weapons? Must i win a grapple check to attack the grappler with a weapon? Does this break me free? Is breaking free from a grapple a free action/move action/standard action/atack action? There are just so many little questions that HAVE answers in the rules, but are so "could go either way" in real life that people tend to misremember/not-remember them, causing a grind down of play and arguments a-plenty. Initiating and maintaining a grapple have 'easy' enough to learn rules, but the choices that arise from anything other that "I grab and choke him" can lead to much looking up of things.

Heck on the wizards websight you can find (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050301a) a 4 part "all about grappling" that took up 4 parts with all the explanations. And there are parts that the author get wrong(ish) and it was edited later. Point is, it takes a long time for the makers of the game to explain grappling's uses, it takes many players even longer to memorize every little nuacnce of the choices, and only 5 seconds to forget it all between gaming sessions. WoTC apparently have noticed this, and are willing to see if they can't help out out in 4e.

 

[Celebrim]

Take Close-Quarters Fighting...

That's what I was thinking of when I gave the example. It's a general problem with absolutes in the game. One of the problem I have with 'Improved Grab' is that it makes 'Close Quarters Fighting' an absolute must have feat for fighter types. It's very hard for a fighter to survive a big grappler without it.*

For my part, I don't see what is wrong with 'Improved Grab' just letting you do normal damage when you successfully start a grapple.

Likewise, what would be wrong with the AoO adding to your chance of avoiding a grapple per the CQF rules, rather than causing it to fail absolutely? Conceptually, I'd rather that it be hard to grab pixies because they were hard to grab, and not because they pinched me when I tried.

CQF could simply give you a +5 bonus to hit on your AoO in responce to a grapple attempt.

*Of course, to be fair, I think that its true that 'grappling defence' of some sort is pretty much something you have to think about when building a character if you want to continue to play the character - whether it be insanely high 'escape artist' skill or 'freedom of movement' or CQF. You better have some plan for avoiding being squished.

 

[Storminator]

Take Close-Quarters Fighting (mostly for melee types) from the Complete Warrior. Basically, you get an AoO when a creature attempts to grapple, even if the creature has Improved Grapple or an ability that lets its start a grapple without an AoO. If you cause damage on your AoO, the Grapple attempt automatically fails unless the attacker has Improved Grapple or a similar ability. In this case, add you damage to the initial grapple check to see if the creature starts its grapple.

Of course, this leads to weird rules that Celebrim has already mentioned:



"I use my anti-anti!"...

Yeah, there is that feat, which is pretty good. But have you ever seen someone that wasn't a fighter take it? Rogue? Paladin? Cleric?

PS

 

[fnwc]

Yeah, there is that feat, which is pretty good. But have you ever seen someone that wasn't a fighter take it? Rogue? Paladin? Cleric?

No, mainly because other classes don't get enough feats. But that's a different topic entirely...

 

[Storminator]

No, mainly because other classes don't get enough feats. But that's a different topic entirely...

And they don't do enough damage for it to really help. If you're 20 points behind in grapple check, even doing 10 points of damage (fairly ordinary non-melee-guy AoO damage) isn't enough to make a difference, and you've blown a feat for it.

PS

 

[maggot]

Never had a problem with grapple except for the fact that at high levels the monsters have grapple checks so high that an equivalent level PC automatically loses. Thus, you have to have freedom of movement up or be hosed.

The rules themselves were quite easy. This is the only feature I'd like changed.