D&D General What's the DC for a fighter to heal their ally with a prayer?

[Chaosmancer]

Arcana explicitly represents knowledge about magic. What is in question is whether that knowledge can equate to magical ability. In 4e it explicitly says yes in some ways. 3e and 5e do not have such explicit uses of the knowledge skill.

Never said that they did have explicit uses of Arcana to cast spells. But it seems very very implicit that the two are related heavily in regards to wizard magic.

I mean, Arcana domain cleric is literally a cleric with wizard magic. There is an obvious connection.

 

[Voadam]

Never said that they did have explicit uses of Arcana to cast spells. But it seems very very implicit that the two are related heavily in regards to wizard magic.

I mean, Arcana domain cleric is literally a cleric with wizard magic. There is an obvious connection.

Generally wizardry is also considered an art and a practice.

Someone who has great knowledge of baseball may not be able to throw a pitch.

I would think knowledge is arguably necessary but insufficient on its own to do wizard magic.

In 5e a wizard does not even need to be trained in arcana.

"Skills: Choose two from Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, and Religion"

 

[Crimson Longinus]

And how do wizard's cast spells, if not through the knowledge of magical things?

There obviously is more to it. Wizard doesn't even need to be proficient in arcana. Arcana skill doesn't grant you connection to the weave.

And you do not need the spellcasting feature to cast spells. There are many other avenues to spellcasting, from racial abilities, feats, and ritual casting. Heck, you can cast spells through magical items.

Sure. So get one of those if you want your fighter to cast spells.

To me, this almost reads like saying that I know all about numbers and mathematical symbols, but that I can't solve an equation, because I need the "equation solving" feature to do that, and knowledge of how numbers and math symbols work isn't enough. And before you start on something about niche protection, remember, I'm talking taking an action spell and making it an hour long ritual, not for the purposes of utility, but for the purposes of combat.

It's a bit like thinking that studying astrophysics would qualify you to fly a space shuttle. They're related, but ultimately completely different skillsets.

Okay, hit me with it. What is the absolute most terrible thing that allowing a character to spend four Hit Die and an hour long ritual to do with 3rd level or lower spells can do? I'm assuming they are level 5, by the way.

Frankly, this has literally never come up, because people who want to cast spells play spellcasters, but someone wanted to make stabilizing a dying character (cantrip level magic) the same as a 3rd level spell, so hit me with your best shot.

Why are we arbitrarily drawing the line at the third level? If a fighter can cast third level spells this way, why a character normally capable of casting fifth level spells can't cast wish the same way (four levels higher than they could normally cast, counting cantrips as level zero.)

Because you aren't religious and therefore use other skills?

Look. Once you can substitute religion for other skills the characters become religious super fast!

Praying for stealth won't make you stealthy (it could work for a specific narrative purpose, but those are typically "I was captured by [evil thing] when I was a child, I escaped and the gods helped hide me" backstory stuff. Not, "I'm part of a band of trained killers who are very powerful")

Why wouldn't it? "I pray that the enemies won't notice me."

Really, the entire reason it might work is the desperation motive. It is a life or death situation, and you call upon the gods to aid you. If you want to rely on being in a life or death situation, and then calling out to the gods to save you instead of investing in other skills, you are more than welcome to try, but I'm under no obligation to give you the strength to break steel to save you from slavers, or the direction to find water when you are traveling the desert alone and naked, or steady hands as you are disarming a magical nuke. You can pray, but they won't always answer.

Right. So you arbitrarily decide praying doesn't work in those other situations and the are surprised that other people similarly decide it doesn't work in a situation you think it should...

 

[Ovi]

A wisdom check is available to everyone. Training in medicine just adds your proficiency bonus to the check.

5e PH page 178 under Wisdom checks:

"Medicine. A Wisdom (Medicine) check lets you try to stabilize a dying companion or diagnose an illness."

5e PH page 197 under Stabilizing a Creature:

"You can use your action to administer first aid to an unconscious creature and attempt to stabilize it, which requires a successful DC 10 Wisdom (Medicine) check."

I'm a bit confused... did you take what I said about religion not being necessarily relevant and then providing alternatives as somehow saying that wisdom checks are not available? Because... yeah, wisdom checks are absolutely available for the GM to call for, or, if you prefer at your table, for players to call for. Doesn't really touch what I was saying, though.

The mechanical niche argument would seem to be if the game says stabilizing can happen with a wisdom medicine check should that defined specific check be able to be replaced with a charisma persuasion check or an intelligence religion check to pray the stabilization into happening?

Um, the rules need niche protection? Not following here. Are you trying to claim that because there's a codified way to do a thing, that no other ways should exist because that would, what, devalue the codified method?

A different niche argument would be that niche protection is doing stuff well. So everyone can stabilize with first aid but big instant healing is a thing for clerics and bards (4e leader role) with some work arounds for specific subclasses (celestial bloodline sorcerer type stuff where they get the healing magic) or feat investment, etc. Should praying be able to do the same big impact level niche stuff as build investment?

I think it can, because you'd balance the ad hoc prayer with some form of cost/risk whereas the "niche" (ad arguendo) method is essentially fiat for the player to declare this thing happens.

Similarly everyone can swing a melee weapon, but melee combat type classes get special abilities far above an attack with a weapon (increased attacks, sneak attack, smite, rage, specific spells, etc.).

Okay, but we aren't talking about perfect replication, are we? Even if we allow for actual hitpoint healing or condition removal with the ad hoc prayer action, it still is with additional cost and risk (ie, it can fail with consequences and some necessary cost may be leveled for success, even, like future service or a sacrifice of some kind).

 

[Baron Opal II]

Because WITH supporting context, this makes a ton of sense. Not only that, it feels amazing. This could be a turning moment for a character, where they find faith in the Gods and take to a new path in life. Perhaps their prayer involves a narrative plea, and it allows for an excellent exploration of that stories that can be evoked when you make promises to the Gods. Perhaps it is a character who has had a life long devotion to the Divine, but was never blessed with power, finding that in their darkest hour, their faith is rewarded and the life of a friend spared.

Sure, the fighter can pull out a healer's kit, spend an action to bandage and stabilize their friend, and that's the end of it. But... come on! That would be the end of it, an event so mundane that it has happened thousands of times in games for decades.

Awesome! What's the Religion (Charisma) DC to achieve this?

 

[Baron Opal II]

If Arcana does not represent magical knowledge, what does it represent?

Arcana represents magical knowledge.

It does not represent inherent talent, arcane practice, mental discipline, vows to supernatural entities, pacts enforcing servitude, ties to Empyrial power sources, or the creation of tools to facilitate the actual casting of magic.

Anatomy and Physiology texts do not a surgeon make.

Okay, hit me with it. What is the absolute most terrible thing that allowing a character to spend four Hit Die and an hour long ritual to do with 3rd level or lower spells can do? I'm assuming they are level 5, by the way.

Frankly, this has literally never come up, because people who want to cast spells play spellcasters, but someone wanted to make stabilizing a dying character (cantrip level magic) the same as a 3rd level spell, so hit me with your best shot.

I dunno, train a squad of thieves this trick and have them scout out out a place distant from a concentration of the enemy. Have one part cast silence repeatedly to muffle the sound of the rest. The others cast fireball in a slightly overlapping pattern like an artillery strike. Then they skedaddle. You just find a situation where time before the act is not a significant cost.

 

[Vaalingrade]

How would the fighters feel if the wizards went around dealing damage?

Maybe even half damage even when they didn't hit?

To multiple opponents in an action?

At extreme range?

That would be wrong and no one DM would ever allow that.

 

[Baron Opal II]

(Eh, I don't want to fight about that...)

 

[pemerton]

How would the fighters feel if the wizards went around dealing damage?

As I posted upthread:

If everyone, not only fighters, can hurt other people with weapons, why can't everyone, not only clerics, pray to the gods with some hope of being heard?

A character doesn't need to take the Jump spell to be able to jump, nor the Charm spell to be able to make friends (even with angry people not inclined to be friendly). I don't see why praying needs to be in a radically different category.

I often see posts about eg anyone can make a check to disarm, "stunt" etc. Is healing by prayer different as a matter of principle?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Generally wizardry is also considered an art and a practice.

Someone who has great knowledge of baseball may not be able to throw a pitch.

I would think knowledge is arguably necessary but insufficient on its own to do wizard magic.

In 5e a wizard does not even need to be trained in arcana.

"Skills: Choose two from Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, and Religion"

So, maybe they can't throw a consistent pitch, unless they go to an indoor range, where they make sure they have the correct ball, and they practice the form a few times, and then they throw a decent but not great pitch?

Kind of like, the difference between being able to do it in an action, with a spell slot, compared to doing it in a long ritual that requires a lot of specific elements to help support you and still ends with a mediocre example?

And I am aware that the rules do not require them to be trained in arcana. They also don't require Druid's to have nature or Clerics Religion. Generally, people represent this by the individual being talented in the practicals but not understanding or having a deep knowledge of the theory. Kind of like the pro athlete who just does the thing without needing to know the science behind it, while the trainers might not be able to do the thing in a way that lets them compete on the field, but they understand the theory and maybe they can do the thing, once, in a slow and methodical method that allows the pro to see what they were doing incorrectly.