D&D General What's the DC for a fighter to heal their ally with a prayer?

[Ovi]

That doesn't seem an accurate summary.

The OP posits a fighter simply praying to the gods for healing with a dying friend and asks how a DM would handle it. Not specifically for stabilization, which the fighter can do with the explicit mechanic of a medicine check. Divine intervention healing is not limited to stabilization. The 2e FR god books have examples of big time divine intervention healing. An answered prayer for healing could be stabilization but could be a lot more.

If you are going for a religion check to stabilize though there seem more relevant mechanics to compare it to than cantrips or healing kits. The relevant comparison of a not explicit use of a religion check for stabilization seems to be the explicit mechanic of the medicine check for stabilization.

What skill checks do you expect a religion check to be able to substitute for? You can pray in a lot of situations.

If a friend is dying, and then isn't dying, we'd generally say that they were healed, even if they didn't regain consciousness, so I'd absolutely say my take is within the spirit and scope of the OP. That said, I'm not personally against actually restoration of hitpoints or conditions, either, but the cost/risk would likely go up.

I mention the healer's kit because it's something available to everyone (thus no niche protection) that autosucceeds at stabilizing a dying friend. Thus, I find it relevant as a reference point for how you can do the thing without having to ask the GM to allow it. I'm not even sold on religion being necessarily relevant -- I'd easily allow a CHA(persuasion) check for praying for aid. Religion is also on the table. Need to see how the player proposes to go about it and how the negotiation resolves.

 

[Voadam]

I mention the healer's kit because it's something available to everyone (thus no niche protection) that autosucceeds at stabilizing a dying friend. Thus, I find it relevant as a reference point for how you can do the thing without having to ask the GM to allow it. I'm not even sold on religion being necessarily relevant -- I'd easily allow a CHA(persuasion) check for praying for aid. Religion is also on the table. Need to see how the player proposes to go about it and how the negotiation resolves.

A wisdom check is available to everyone. Training in medicine just adds your proficiency bonus to the check.

5e PH page 178 under Wisdom checks:

"Medicine. A Wisdom (Medicine) check lets you try to stabilize a dying companion or diagnose an illness."

5e PH page 197 under Stabilizing a Creature:

"You can use your action to administer first aid to an unconscious creature and attempt to stabilize it, which requires a successful DC 10 Wisdom (Medicine) check."

The mechanical niche argument would seem to be if the game says stabilizing can happen with a wisdom medicine check should that defined specific check be able to be replaced with a charisma persuasion check or an intelligence religion check to pray the stabilization into happening?

A different niche argument would be that niche protection is doing stuff well. So everyone can stabilize with first aid but big instant healing is a thing for clerics and bards (4e leader role) with some work arounds for specific subclasses (celestial bloodline sorcerer type stuff where they get the healing magic) or feat investment, etc. Should praying be able to do the same big impact level niche stuff as build investment?

Similarly everyone can swing a melee weapon, but melee combat type classes get special abilities far above an attack with a weapon (increased attacks, sneak attack, smite, rage, specific spells, etc.).

 

[Chaosmancer]

If you don't think that there is a difference, why you think Battle Master and Eldritch Knight are separate subclasses?

There is a difference.

The Eldritch Knight learned magic well.
The Battlemaster did not learn magic well, they learned it poorly.

Pretty big difference, as I can prove by the fact that I learned math, science, and english very well, but I don't have a head for languages and thus learned german and spanish poorly. So poorly that I really do not effectively speak them at all.

Yes, ability to cast arcane magic can be learned. Taking Eldritch Knight subclass represent learning it, taking Arcane skill does not.

If Arcana does not represent magical knowledge, what does it represent?

Seriously, if you want your fighter to cast spells, there are several ways to get that feature. Some people are rather reasonably wary about allowing players to do things without spending character building resources that are meant to allow doing those things. It is perfectly fine to dislike game working that way, I remember disliking how in 3e there was a feat or feature for every bloody thing. But there are a lot of games that work in more freeform way, so if one dislikes the capabilities being tied to character building packages there are other options. I just feel it is not wise to terribly much fight against the design principles of the game.

Do you feel taking an hour to cast an spell that normally takes an action, is only really useful in combat, and at the cost of multiple hit dice is terribly straining to the character building resources? Do you imagine there are wizards who are going to be beating down my door, begging for the chance to take SIX HUNDRED times longer and blast away a portion of their health?

Seriously, your objection seems to miss the entire point of the post, or even really the entire topic at hand. What character building resources are taken by a DC 10 Wisdom (Medicine) check that literally anyone can attempt? That has nothing to do with character building resources AT ALL. And THAT is the standard we are looking at for the prayers being answered. Something with effectively zero cost in terms of character building.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Sorcerers who have inborn untaught magic that manifests have been a part of D&D for three editions now. Multiclassing into sorcerer later in life is an explicit mechanical option.

If you want a justification for doing on the spot spontaneous untrained arcane magic there are narrative reasons to do so.

Wonderful! That means there are two narrative reasons to allow this.

So, what's the problem?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Divine magic also requires training, not just favor. That's why paladins get divine magic powers, and fighters get Cool Moves.

Using Divine Magic reliably, potentially, requires training.

However, we can look to some very explicit examples where this is not the case. For example, quite famously Jaela Daran is the Keeper of the Silver Flame in Eberron. While within the Temple (for 3rd edition) she was an 18th level cleric. She was also 11 years old. She was appointed to her position after having visions that led to the defeat of Demon Cult in Thrane at the age of six.

What sort of rigorous training has she undergone to utilize that power? Well, she is undergoing training, but previously none.

And yes, this is a single NPC in a single setting, but it fits into the overall themes and lore of DnD. Gods can annoit champions and bless them with powers, even those who deny the God and hate them. (There was a famous novel character who was a priest of Mask, who hated the god of thieves, if memory serves). You can be trained, you can refine your gift. But it is absolutely not necessary.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

If Arcana does not represent magical knowledge, what does it represent?

It does represent knowledge about magical things. It does not represent ability to cast spells, spellcasting feature represents that.

Do you feel taking an hour to cast an spell that normally takes an action, is only really useful in combat, and at the cost of multiple hit dice is terribly straining to the character building resources? Do you imagine there are wizards who are going to be beating down my door, begging for the chance to take SIX HUNDRED times longer and blast away a portion of their health?

Yes. This is opening a huge can of worms. In D&D magic is very powerful, but it is also very constrained. The spells do quite specific things, and spellcasters have access to a limited selection of the spells. But you have effectively given all characters an ability to cast spells they do not know, nor have appropriate spell slots to cast, as a long and strenuous ritual. This is a huge game changer.

Seriously, your objection seems to miss the entire point of the post, or even really the entire topic at hand. What character building resources are taken by a DC 10 Wisdom (Medicine) check that literally anyone can attempt? That has nothing to do with character building resources AT ALL. And THAT is the standard we are looking at for the prayers being answered. Something with effectively zero cost in terms of character building.

Now if you're just substituting medicine for religion for stabilising check (albeit it was not clear if that's all OP was talking about,) then it is not a huge deal. Though you need to be careful even with such relatively trivial thing. After all, you can pray for anything. If you can replace several other skills with the religion skill, why take those other skills?

 

[Voadam]

If Arcana does not represent magical knowledge, what does it represent?

Arcana explicitly represents knowledge about magic. What is in question is whether that knowledge can equate to magical ability. In 4e it explicitly says yes in some ways. 3e and 5e do not have such explicit uses of the knowledge skill.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Then do this... We keep claiming it's so easy with a healer's kit (costs money, can be taken away and has limited uses) or Healer feat (Significant investment in resources and still also requires a healer's kit to do anything with) or a cantrip (Significant investment either class wise or feat wise)... and this is without getting into the narrative implications around anyone being able to mumble a prayer and it works. If these are such easy, convenient ways to achieve this effect... then let the fighter use one of these means at his disposal. That's what I'm not getting... There's all these other supposedly less costly, more sure ways to do this... Why without some kind of supporting context should we allow another that could potentially lead to escalating attempts at other abilities?



The fact is the game lays out a way for this fighter to do this thing, 2 out of the 3 you listed are as available to him as anyone else... so why (again without some kind of supporting context) am I allowing another that at least narratively steps on the toes of the divine characters but also creates truths in the game that affect their characters more than his once it's settled. A world where prayers said by anyone can be answered has much more impact on the play of a cleric or paladin in a D&D game then the fighter.


You still haven't given a reason why this is better or even equal to having the fighter use those available means...

See, those bolded bits tell that, at the end of the day, you agree with us. Because WITH supporting context, this makes a ton of sense. Not only that, it feels amazing. This could be a turning moment for a character, where they find faith in the Gods and take to a new path in life. Perhaps their prayer involves a narrative plea, and it allows for an excellent exploration of that stories that can be evoked when you make promises to the Gods. Perhaps it is a character who has had a life long devotion to the Divine, but was never blessed with power, finding that in their darkest hour, their faith is rewarded and the life of a friend spared.

Sure, the fighter can pull out a healer's kit, spend an action to bandage and stabilize their friend, and that's the end of it. But... come on! That would be the end of it, an event so mundane that it has happened thousands of times in games for decades.


And the worst thing is, you act as though the fighter's prayers being answered somehow negatively affects the cleric or paladin, but the world you are proposing is so, so much worse for them. Work through what it would mean to live in a world where the Gods are real, but they never answer prayers unless they come from clerics or paladins? Temples would disappear. They would have zero reason to exist, because everyone would know that the Gods never answer prayers, so what is the point of praying? You would never pray to the Goddess of the Harvest for a good harvest, because she would never answer.

Or, alternatively, Temples would exist, and the world would tend towards Theocracy, where the clerics and paladins sit in temples, receiving requests, and praying on behalf of other people. Endlessly. Why would they be permitted to wander the countryside and risk being killed? They are one of the blessed few who can pray to the gods. Which would also mean that the clergy who ran temples would ALL have to be spellcasters, because you wouldn't be running a temple if you could not pray.

It fundamentally breaks down the narrative of the worlds of DnD as presented. It is fine if you want to play that, but it would not be how worlds like Greyhawk or FR are set up and presented AT ALL.

 

[pemerton]

In D&D magic is very powerful, but it is also very constrained. The spells do quite specific things, and spellcasters have access to a limited selection of the spells. But you have effectively given all characters an ability to cast spells they do not know, nor have appropriate spell slots to cast, as a long and strenuous ritual. This is a huge game changer.

I think this is quite overstated for 4e, and even for AD&D. My own feeling is that it is also overstated for 5e.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It does represent knowledge about magical things. It does not represent ability to cast spells, spellcasting feature represents that.

And how do wizard's cast spells, if not through the knowledge of magical things?

And you do not need the spellcasting feature to cast spells. There are many other avenues to spellcasting, from racial abilities, feats, and ritual casting. Heck, you can cast spells through magical items.

To me, this almost reads like saying that I know all about numbers and mathematical symbols, but that I can't solve an equation, because I need the "equation solving" feature to do that, and knowledge of how numbers and math symbols work isn't enough. And before you start on something about niche protection, remember, I'm talking taking an action spell and making it an hour long ritual, not for the purposes of utility, but for the purposes of combat.

Yes. This is opening a huge can of worms. In D&D magic is very powerful, but it is also very constrained. The spells do quite specific things, and spellcasters have access to a limited selection of the spells. But you have effectively given all characters an ability to cast spells they do not know, nor have appropriate spell slots to cast, as a long and strenuous ritual. This is a huge game changer.

Okay, hit me with it. What is the absolute most terrible thing that allowing a character to spend four Hit Die and an hour long ritual to do with 3rd level or lower spells can do? I'm assuming they are level 5, by the way.

Frankly, this has literally never come up, because people who want to cast spells play spellcasters, but someone wanted to make stabilizing a dying character (cantrip level magic) the same as a 3rd level spell, so hit me with your best shot.

Now if you're just substituting medicine for religion for stabilising check (albeit it was not clear if that's all OP was talking about,) then it is not a huge deal. Though you need to be careful even with such relatively trivial thing. After all, you can pray for anything. If you can replace several other skills with the religion skill, why take those other skills?

Because you aren't religious and therefore use other skills?

Praying for stealth won't make you stealthy (it could work for a specific narrative purpose, but those are typically "I was captured by [evil thing] when I was a child, I escaped and the gods helped hide me" backstory stuff. Not, "I'm part of a band of trained killers who are very powerful")

Really, the entire reason it might work is the desperation motive. It is a life or death situation, and you call upon the gods to aid you. If you want to rely on being in a life or death situation, and then calling out to the gods to save you instead of investing in other skills, you are more than welcome to try, but I'm under no obligation to give you the strength to break steel to save you from slavers, or the direction to find water when you are traveling the desert alone and naked, or steady hands as you are disarming a magical nuke. You can pray, but they won't always answer.