D&D 5E What's the point of gold?

[neobolts]

The problem is that 3e let the cat out of the box.

Your attempts to make dnd into a game without a solid magic item economy are cute, but doesn't really change anything.

What was awesome about 3e was magic item *crafting*. Of course, once the PCs were artisans crafting magic items, the world populated with NPC crafters as well. It also begs the question in 5e (and early D&D): "Who is making all this stuff and why can't I?" 5e players kinda end up sidestepping that question and just earning their vorpal whatnots the old-fashioned way. The updside is it makes magic items more special and their presence in game more controlled.

 

[Derren]

Ok, I'll bite.

What non-setting specific mechanics could they have added to the castle building mechanics that would satisfy you? Note, it must be non-setting specific because if it is setting specific, then we get into the complaints that WOTC is telling people how to play the game. Building a castle in one setting is quite different from another after all.

So, what mechanics would make you happy

1. A overview of types of strongholds, both historically inspired and fantastical, with advantages/disadvantages for them
2. Strongholds and the PCs. How does having a stronghold affect the PC. Does he gain a title and if yes what impact does that have? What does a PC gain from a stronghold, what are his responsibilities and how much can he delegate at what cost?
3. Using strongholds. Plot hooks involving strongholds, strongholds as points of interests, simple siege mechanics.
4. An overview of trade posts (yes, they too are listed as possible buy option for PCs) and trade in D&D in general
5. Making or losing money with trade and please more sensible rules than giving trade post the same earning potential as a farm

 

[Shasarak]

Personally I'd rather stick the dragon's head to the ground while he sleeps or slip some sovereign glue into his mouth via a deceptive cow offering or something and then just pot shot him from a distance.

I guess my worry would be what is the next trick I had up my sleeve for when the Dragons Mum comes around to find out why she has not seen her son for a while?

 

[Derren]

Personally I'd rather stick the dragon's head to the ground while he sleeps or slip some sovereign glue into his mouth via a deceptive cow offering or something and then just pot shot him from a distance.

When you get so close to a sleeping dragon as to apply glue to its head, why not drive a sword through its eye and kill it instantly? Its not that the dragon can't raise its head again by ripping its scales off.

 

[Salthorae]

When you get so close to a sleeping dragon as to apply glue to its head, why not drive a sword through its eye and kill it instantly? Its not that the dragon can't raise its head again by ripping its scales off.

YMMV... that's all going to be up to the DM. If I was DM'ing and a PC was clever enough to drizzle Sovereign Glue under a sleeping Dragon's chin, I would certainly let that happen. Are you strong enough to tear your skin off if it's been stuck by Super Glue? Do dragon scales actually shed easily or would they have to rip them out? It's all up to the DM on how that would shake out, but I certainly would give them more than a couple rounds before the dragon ripped free at the least. Even then the dragon would take damage for ripping it's own scales/skin off to free itself.

Would driving a sword through a dragon's eye kill it or just blind it in one eye and piss it off? Again, up to the DM. I'd go with the latter. Still clever, will give negatives, won't kill it automatically, but each DM is different. IMO the sovereign glue is a better story down the road to reminisce about than just stabbing, but again YMMV.

 

[Derren]

IMO the sovereign glue is a better story down the road to reminisce about than just stabbing, but again YMMV.

And yet less effective. Sure when you are in a "Saturday Morning cartoon" style campaign you can pull it off, but in more serious games there are numerous more logical things to do in that situation which affect the dragon more or even kill it instantly than to play pranks on it.
Thats the problem with the price of the glue. Sure, it has applications but many of them fall more into the realm of "silly pranks" than "reasonable application".

 

[Salthorae]

And yet less effective. Sure when you are in a "Saturday Morning cartoon" style campaign you can pull it off, but in more serious games there are numerous more logical things to do in that situation which affect the dragon more or even kill it instantly than to play pranks on it.
Thats the problem with the price of the glue. Sure, it has applications but many of them fall more into the realm of "silly pranks" than "reasonable application".

Tomayto, tomahto, you say "silly prank", I say "clever use of magical gear". Not sure how the game I would stick a dragon's chin to the ground and take away it's main weapon and mobility is not either a serious or logical option, but whatever, your game, your style, your opinion.

Anyway, this whole discussion on the price point and effectiveness of Sovereign glue is a sub-digression of other digressions on the OP question of is gold useless. I think many have replied and shown that no, gold isn't useless. Just depends on the DM.

 

[Derren]

Tomayto, tomahto, you say "silly prank", I say "clever use of magical gear".

And while you glue the dragons chin to the ground to inconvenience it I driver a sword up to the hilt through its eye and into its brain killing it instantly.
But that is only of importance if you can indeed buy magical items. If you follow the default theme you can not and the gold is useless as you can't use it to make you more competent at your (life threatening) job and, because you want to keep playing the character, don't use it to retire what a sensible person would do.
So you are left with throwing the money out on novelty items, spending it on luxuries (whatever your character considers to be luxuries anyway) or buying strongholds and ships which fall into the "Make it up" category just so that you are rid of all the gold you have.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

So what if a shop has Sovereign Glue for 50,000 and a Vorpal Sword for 150,000? (Since the value of legendary item is 50,000+) and most people seem to agree that a +3 weapon that can decapitate someone 1 in 20 times is more valuable than a substance that can force a dragon's jaws shut for all time...

My memory says that legendary items are 500,000 gp. Do I misremember?

But that is only of importance if you can indeed buy magical items. If you follow the default theme you can not and the gold is useless as you can't use it to make you more competent at your (life threatening) job and, because you want to keep playing the character, don't use it to retire what a sensible person would do.

That's why I don't believe in professional "adventurers" who do it as a job. I don't build my world to accomodate such people. In 5E DMG terms, you could say that I prefer epic fantasy to heroic fantasy: the PCs should have a reason better than loot to do what they do. I run a sandbox, but I still set up situations that the PCs ought to care about. The campaign started off with (almost) everybody in the kingdom's main army except the PCs getting killed in an avalanche/ambush, and everything else since then has been a consequence of the fact that right now, their kingdom has no army except for a few frail little PCs and whatever allies they can make. Right now while they are off treasure-hunting, a force of 4000 hobgoblins is advancing on the capital. If the PCs choose to take their gold and "retire", they will have to do so under hobgoblin overlords...

I don't think I've ever read or heard an interesting story about professional adventurers, except maybe Indiana Jones, who is himself arguably an amateur. The real professionals in Indiana Jones, who adventured purely for loot, are the Spanish conquistadores in Kingdom of the Crystal Skull and they all came to a bad end.

 

[Salthorae]

But that is only of importance if you can indeed buy magical items.

You can though, there is a section in DMG pg 135 that discusses both buying and selling magic items if a DM wants to do that.

So you are left with throwing the money out on novelty items, spending it on luxuries (whatever your character considers to be luxuries anyway) or buying strongholds and ships which fall into the "Make it up" category just so that you are rid of all the gold you have.

How is that any different than buying magic gear from previous editions? That too was just a way to make sure you got rid of all the gold you have, but it wouldn't allow a PC to do any purchasing outside of gear because without that gear you'd be at a significant disadvantage in combat. In 5e that's not the case, you don't need the gear to adventure.

It only make gold "useless" if the only style of gaming you care about is hack n' slash. If there is any role playing involved in a 5e game, you can easily find things to spend your gold on.

gold is useless as you can't use it to make you more competent at your (life threatening) job

And herein lies the rub. Everyone is approaching this discussion with the 3.x and 4e concepts in mind. In 5e you don't NEED magic items to adventure. it's 95% what the character themselves can do, and not the gear they have purchased. 3.x and 4e required you to gear up to adventure. In 5e however, a party of 4x18th level characters can theoretically take on a CR 24 Ancient red dragon with plain swords and armor, and like 1 magic item a person. In 3.x if you didn't have +5 everything at that point vs. a dragon of CR24 you wouldn't stand a chance.

That frees up PC's to spend their gold investing in the game world rather than their character's survivability. If you consider having to think up ways to spend your gold "useless", then there exists a fundamental disconnect between what each of us values in a PnP game.