Thanks, guys, you've ruined Haste for the rest of us.

[Grog]

Yes you can, but is that the game you want to play. As Ridley's Cohort pointed out it may not be a balance issue, but its not necesarrily the style of game you might want to play. I know it's not the style of game I want to play.

I agree. Personally, I think there's way too much "save or die" stuff in 3E. But I was responding to the argument that "mid-level wizards suck compared to fighters". It's just not true.

 

[IceBear]

IME, wizards were always about damaging/killing hordes of weaker monsters while the fighter was better with the one big bad (disregarding save or die spells).

Anyway, it's possible that there is an Improved Haste, that Quicken is better, that avoiding fireballs is harder, etc.

I'm going to have to wait and see.

IceBear

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Don't panic folks -- the text of the spell isn't printed yet -- we only know the one change.

Presuming it's exactly the same as the d20M version, you get an extra attack instead of an extra action -- but you'll also increase movement rate by 30 feet. Check the d20 SRD.

 

[The Firstborn]

I'm in 2 games -- in one, the fighters generally are doing d8 + strength and magic on a hit. In the other, they're doing the same plus 2 handed power strike, specialization, improved critical, power attack, reckless attack, and (if paladins) divine might. In the first game, they are doing around 20 points per round, and in the second, 70 to 80 points. Both are 12th level games.

The wizard is tossing his 10d6 fireball for an average of 26 points due to half the saves being successful. Sure, he can do it to several people, but the fighters can do their damage all day -- and the wizard runs out of spells. Letting the wizard double his damage by throwing 2 fireballs did not seem out of balance -- especially since he will run out of spells that much sooner.

I agree that their reasoning was moronic. Wizards who are after more spells per round will take both haste and quicken spell. One of my wizards took quicken spell, and used it once per combat -- for sheild. Nothing else was worth the 4 level bump.

OfficeRonin

I am wondering about your second game where the fighter types are doing 70 to 80 points per round. What kind of monsters are they fighting? What kind of magic weapons, gauntlets, belts, etc... are they using? What did thier stats look like at first level and what are they now before magic? Did they get to read the +5 str, +5 dex, +5 con Tomes? Did they come in a set? Is the DM allowing bless, and bard song, aid, etc... all at the same time? Is the Wizard casting magic weapons and greater magic weapon on the fighter-types weapons on top of the magic +5 Keen edged flaming vorpal sword of wounding and icy burst? Come on now what are we talking about here? To do a proper analysis we need the full scoop not just final data. I wonder what these fighter types have for AC scores. Probably still get full use of thier magic shields even though they fight with two handed weapons right? Who knows.

Now after asking this stuff let me add this question. Do wizards and clerics get thier tomes, headbands of intellect, magic wands, rings, scrolls, etc... or is the game lopsided because of the DM's intervention.

 

[The Firstborn]

Yes you can, but is that the game you want to play. As Ridley's Cohort pointed out it may not be a balance issue, but its not necesarrily the style of game you might want to play. I know it's not the style of game I want to play.

So, what kind of game do you want to play as a wizard? Maybe this will give us and WOTC some insight into what you want to see. Do you want to be the all powerful wizard to whom all other PC's bow down to because your power is ultimate? Give us your framework for a game in which wizards are as good as fighters types.

 

[Caliban]

Okay, so a bunch of people complained and now Haste is nerfed. Thanks a lot.

No problem, glad we could help.

What about those of us who thought Haste was perfectly fine the way it was?

Then your a munchkin, and your opinion doesn't count.

Seriously though, if your DM agrees with you, then don't use the 3.5 version of haste. Just stick with the 3.0 version.

How can a wizard now hope to keep up with the damage that a fighter can do?

You already do more damage than the fighter when dealing with multiple opponents. When dealing with a single opponent you can use a "Save or be disabled" spell and take it out in one round where a fighter would need multiple rounds to whittle it down.

"Quicken Spell" is the reason for the nerf? People won't take Quicken Spell if they can use Haste? That's odd; my wizard uses *both* Haste and Quicken Spell. Quicken Spell as written is not powerful enough to take Haste's place.

Now add in Chain Spell, Repeat Spell, Twin Spell, and Imbue Familiar with Spell ability. All of these involve a cost in getting the extra spell. Haste does not.

And now, Haste is a very silly spell. It's a spell that makes you faster, but you can't actually move faster. (You no longer have the option to use your partial action for movement.) And fights will be silly... A wizard casts "New Haste" and then gets an extra attack... so, what, he throws a dagger or something? And then each round he casts a spell and throws a dagger?

Gee, sounds like haste as it was originally written. Back in 1st and 2nd Ed. it was primarily a fighter buff spell.

And if it's like the D20 Modern version of Haste, it will increase your movement, on top of the AC bonus and the extra attack. We won't know for sure until it's actually published.

However, there is one hope left for wizards, though it comes from "Magic of Rokugan". Players of wizards must beg and plead with their DMs to let them use Magic of Rokugan, I suppose, but that shouldn't be too hard, since Rokugan is kinda sorta the offical universe for Oriental Adventures, and Oriental Adventures is an official setting... So, if a wizard is allowed to use "Magic of Rokugan," he can cast "Hurried Steps," a 2nd level spell which is a personal version of Haste that gives you an extra partial action each round that can only be used to cast a spell. And "New Haste" will stack with it now.

Don't count on it. It will probably be errata'd at about the same time. And most campaigns don't allow the Rokugun spells anyway.l

I used haste for my wizard a lot. It allowed me to do the work of any three other characters in a combat. And that's the problem. Wizards are already very strong at higher levels, without doubling their effectiveness by using one single spell. Items like Boots of Speed just made it worse.

I don't like the change, but I can appreciate why it's necessary.

 

[Pax]

Ah, I see. So the change to Haste is fine, because maybe the DM won't use it?

Well, the change will certainly make damage-dealing spells even more pointless than they already are. A mid-level fighter will get three attacks, plus one for Haste and maybe more (if using two-weapon fighting or Rapid Shot), for about 30 points of damage with each attack, for a total of about 120 to 150 points of damage. A wizard can cast one fireball to do 10d6 damage, save for half, meaning about 17 points of damage, once a round. Yeah, that seems balanced.

30 points of damage per attack ... ?!?!? Reliably hitting with them all ... ?

Now, that, I'd like to see, 'cause I don't think it can be DONE. figure, longsword, good strength, specialisation ... I can see 15 per attack (even "on average"). I can see hitting with half of his attacks, IOW, gettign a net per-round damage average of 30 to 40.

But 120 to 150?

No offense, but .... bull.


Also consider, that fireball can nab up to, say, eight targets. I can be cast at a large range (11th level caster, say, JUST enough for a fighter to have three attacks w/o feats or haste) ... I think around 840 feet, for caster level 11 (it's 400 + 40/Level, right?).

And even then ... that's only a THIRD level spell. Said wizard also has access to SIXTH level spells, and everything lower -- or better, to metamagicks. Maximise that fireball, and it's "60, save for 30) ... in one of those sixth-level spell slots. With Haste (hey, you mentioned the -fighter- could get it, why not the wizard too?), that's a second spell cast. With (from T&B) a Rod of Quickening, said wizard could, a few times per day, drop a THIRD maximised fireball. All in one round. At nearly 900 foot range.

60 per fireball (save for 30), for 2-3 fireballs, catching, say ... four people apiece. That's 480-720 damage (save for 240-360), spread among up to 12 targets.

............... your point is?

 

[Bastoche]

Wrong title.

Here is the right one:

"Thanks, guys, you've ruined Haste for the rest of me."

 

[officeronin]

I'm just curious about the mid level fighters doing 150 points of damage per round. For an 11-12th level fighter, that's 50 points per attack! And that means every attack is hitting, every single round. I don't see how a fighter of that level can dish out that kind of damage consistently over the course of an entire adventure. Maybe a smackdown type character could, but smackdown characters are usually built to use up a lot of resources for one fight.

And, as a mid-level wizard, if you think damage spells aren't cutting it, you have plenty of other options. Disintegrate, Polymorph Other, Hold Monster, Charm Monster, Confusion, etc.

Let's see -- you are slamming on him for giving an example where every attack hits, and then recommend save of die spells that require saving throws that the BBEGs will almost always make.

I think 150 for the round is a little high, but I can come up with 35 points on an average hit without really trying, even ignoring criticals. So, figuring 2 sucessful attacks (out of the 3 plus the hasted attack), gives 70 points of damage. Meanwhile, the mage has either casted his direct-damage spell (which might reach mid-20s on a save), or casted a save or die spell that the BBEG saves against. Oh yeah -- he can also throw his dagger away. (since it will miss anyway...)

Strange that all this talk is about haste being too powerful for a 3rd level spell -- I've never seen the wizard who didn't take at least one fireball...

You know, for over a year I thought that haste didn't allow a second spellcasting in the round -- and I never cast the spell in that time other than to make boots of speed (back when we understood that they were free actions to activate) for the 8000 gp +4 AC bump that didn't take time to cast. I wouldn't consider memorizing it.

Officeronin

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I agree. Personally, I think there's way too much "save or die" stuff in 3E. But I was responding to the argument that "mid-level wizards suck compared to fighters". It's just not true.

Oh god no wizards don't suck compared to fighters. With or without haste wizards are a good distance better than fighters at mid levels on. Me I think fighters kinda suck. Yeah they do great consistent damage, but that is all they do, so unless your campaign is just the party running form fight to fight I think the fighter looks bad.

I still don't like the "fix" but it's not going to wreck the balance of wizards or somehting IMO.