D&D 5E What's the point of gold?

[Derren]

I was just trying to defend against "gold is useless since you can't buy magic" posts.

It doesn't have to be magic items, just something useful for adventuring. Magic Items are just the most common form of "things useful for adventuring PCs can't afford at character creation) from other editions.

Just look for example at Shadowrun. There are lots of things to spend money on which makes Shadowrunning more easy. There are of course weapons and armor but you also have a lot of other things. Communication equipment, breaking and entering kits, disguises, etc. Planning a run nearly always requires you to spend money for specialized equipment while in D&D once you get your basic gear (most of which gotten during character creation) you are set for the vast majority of dungeons.
And then there are the running costs. Not only some little lifestyle expenses but also ammunition, fake IDs, evidence cleanup, DocWagon contracts, replacing hot weapons, etc. And if the rigger loses a drone during a run he is really bleeding money.
In Shadowrun you can nearly always find a useful thing to do with money.

And in 5E D&D? Once you have your class equipment money can't aid you much during adventuring. Even potions are not all that available. The only thing left to do with money is "feel good spending" like orphans and other things where you cross off money from your sheet and call that role playing or just waste it on luxuries. There are the occasional bribes needed, but the usual dungeons in D&D require that rather rarely.

 

[Remathilis]

Yeah - I'm not sure that you are quite grasping what I am saying. You are actually setting yourself up for a different sort of problem - too much gold.

The players get the magic items for free. You then, as DM, create a situation in which said item is incredibly valuable. The average player is going to think that they should be able to then sell that item they got for free for copious amounts of gold and jewels. You are free to say no, but doing so over and over again is going to create a certain discordance in your game world between your world-theory and your behavior.

See, that's cyclical thinking. If the problem of gold is that its useless because "you can't buy magic items" then selling magic items for gold is just increasing the amount of useless gold laying around.

Secondly, to alliviate the problem of "copious amounts of gold" you use that wonderful tool of the market: the invisible hand. Specifically, A PC wandering into town with a +1 sword to sell for a million gold is going to be laughed out of town. Rarity (+1 weapons are uncommon; meaning they aren't Excalibur) need (does a noble really need a magic sword?), and opportunity cost (what's worth more: a +1 sword or a legion of troops) are both going to set the price FAR lower than the millions a PC asks for. And lots of people have found so-called priceless or valuable items lack a buyer, usually for asking far more than the market will bear for such an item.

Conversely, If a PC goes to some form of private seller looking to acquire magic do-hickeys, then charge them out the nose for it! A +1 sword is far more valuable to a fighter than a private collector, and the collector knows the risks involved in acquiring one. Ergo, charging a couple thousand for his item is reasonable. If the PC wants it bad enough, he'll either fork over the cash or try his luck finding it in the next dungeon.

And its no-more free money than trying to sell art or gems in game: PCs can do lots of things to sell them above (or below) their value. If a PC gets a +1 sword and sells uses his powers of persuasion it for 5,000 gp, how is that not different than giving him a 5,000 gp gem?

Which returns me to my point: fixed prices for magic items is asking for abuse. Items should be rare enough that their sale (or purchase) can be a mini-quest in itself; finding a buyer/seller and haggling price should be important, not equivalent to buying arrows or more rope. The DMG gives you a rough estimate, but its a range (500-5,000) rather than a fixed gp cost (2,315) which allows for haggling, auctioning, con-games, and the market to do its thing. Fixed prices treat it as a commodity, and that makes it far more rote and less magical.

 

[Shasarak]

I don't think anyone has an issue with the PC's flogging a magic item or two. That isn't going to matter in the long run. But, even if the PC's do have so many magic items that they feel like they can sell some of them, that doesn't really mean that there are many people out there that will do so. Or that there are so many people out there that the PC's will be able to find them.

I mean, how many of you could find someone who was selling a Lambourgini without using the Internet or a phone book? Purely through word of mouth, could you find someone selling a Lambo? it's not like they're that rare. There are tens of thousands of Lambo's out there on the roads. But, without modern resources like telephones, newspapers and the Internet, could you find someone willing to sell you one?

You do not need resources like telephones, newspapers or the Internet to run a Lamborghini shop or to go and buy a Lamborghini from a Lamborghini shop.

 

[Wicht]

See, that's cyclical thinking. If the problem of gold is that its useless because "you can't buy magic items" then selling magic items for gold is just increasing the amount of useless gold laying around.

No, I am not engaging in cyclical thinking - I am trying to say that if you tell the players that magic is too rare to ever buy, you yourself are increasing the perceived demand for it.

Secondly, to alliviate the problem of "copious amounts of gold" you use that wonderful tool of the market: the invisible hand. Specifically, A PC wandering into town with a +1 sword to sell for a million gold is going to be laughed out of town. Rarity (+1 weapons are uncommon; meaning they aren't Excalibur) need (does a noble really need a magic sword?), and opportunity cost (what's worth more: a +1 sword or a legion of troops) are both going to set the price FAR lower than the millions a PC asks for. And lots of people have found so-called priceless or valuable items lack a buyer, usually for asking far more than the market will bear for such an item.

So you admit there is a market for magic items?
Even in a world where magic items are rare.

Conversely, If a PC goes to some form of private seller looking to acquire magic do-hickeys, then charge them out the nose for it! A +1 sword is far more valuable to a fighter than a private collector, and the collector knows the risks involved in acquiring one. Ergo, charging a couple thousand for his item is reasonable. If the PC wants it bad enough, he'll either fork over the cash or try his luck finding it in the next dungeon.

And its no-more free money than trying to sell art or gems in game: PCs can do lots of things to sell them above (or below) their value. If a PC gets a +1 sword and sells uses his powers of persuasion it for 5,000 gp, how is that not different than giving him a 5,000 gp gem?

Which returns me to my point: fixed prices for magic items is asking for abuse. Items should be rare enough that their sale (or purchase) can be a mini-quest in itself; finding a buyer/seller and haggling price should be important, not equivalent to buying arrows or more rope. The DMG gives you a rough estimate, but its a range (500-5,000) rather than a fixed gp cost (2,315) which allows for haggling, auctioning, con-games, and the market to do its thing. Fixed prices treat it as a commodity, and that makes it far more rote and less magical.

I am not sure you are proving your point. You are actually saying on the one hand you want a fixed price for what the PCs might be able to sell a magic item for, but do not want the PCs to be able to buy under the same rules. Which is fine, but one should be upfront about it. A fixed price is no more subject to abuse than a non-fixed price, especially if one considers the fixed price more of a guideline than a hard and fast price.

As for the rest of your argument, it does not have to be an either/or sort of thing. Personally, I don't have "magic marts" in my games, but magic is for sale. There are items that are readily available and if the PC wants something not available they have to work for it in some way, order it from afar, pay for middlemen, pay for transport, etc. This allows for haggling, auctioning, con-games and the market to do its thing, while still treating magic as a commodity. Again, as soon as the players want to sell an item or service, magic is a commodity whether you as DM like it or not and you should have some idea what you are going to do about it before hand.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Personally, I don't have "magic marts" in my games, but magic is for sale. There are items that are readily available and if the PC wants something not available they have to work for it in some way, order it from afar, pay for middlemen, pay for transport, etc. This allows for haggling, auctioning, con-games and the market to do its thing, while still treating magic as a commodity. Again, as soon as the players want to sell an item or service, magic is a commodity whether you as DM like it or not and you should have some idea what you are going to do about it before hand.

As we Louisianans say, "Bingeaux!"

 

[billd91]

You do not need resources like telephones, newspapers or the Internet to run a Lamborghini shop or to go and buy a Lamborghini from a Lamborghini shop.

Not sure I agree here. You wouldn't need those resources to run a bread shop or grocery - everyone needs food. Plus, food is cheap enough that most people can buy at least some of it. The market for Lambourghinis is a lot smaller and more specialized. Not all people living in the shop's town can afford one. In fact, there are going to be towns in which nobody can afford one. So some means of getting the buyer to the shop or of getting knowledge of the shop to the buyer becomes necessary.

 

[Shasarak]

Not sure I agree here. You wouldn't need those resources to run a bread shop or grocery - everyone needs food. Plus, food is cheap enough that most people can buy at least some of it. The market for Lambourghinis is a lot smaller and more specialized. Not all people living in the shop's town can afford one. In fact, there are going to be towns in which nobody can afford one. So some means of getting the buyer to the shop or of getting knowledge of the shop to the buyer becomes necessary.

I agree that you will need some kind of advertising and on the other hand it does not need to be "the Internet"

 

[billd91]

I agree that you will need some kind of advertising and on the other hand it does not need to be "the Internet"

No one said you did. As Hussar said, it could be the internet... Or it could be a phone book. Some sort of information transmission system that goes beyond putting your sign up above the door.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Advertising- of any kind- incurs added cost. A cost either affects the price or the profit margin.

Plus, to point out the other side of this, just because you want a Lambo, doesn't mean there's one to be had where you are at a price you can afford to pay. Further, there are cars in this world so exclusive that you won't be allowed to buy one unless the maker invites you to be a purchaser.








Side note: after declining in price due to regular depreciation for years, the "Poster Cars" of the 1980s-1990s are RISING in price right now due to increased demand by collectors and people indulging their inner 12 year olds.

 

[Remathilis]

So you admit there is a market for magic items?
Even in a world where magic items are rare.

*I* actually never completely shut out the idea of magic items for sale. My concern is for easily available, fixed price, and commonly assumed magic item acquisition via gold pieces.

Let me parse that for you. Easily available = large towns and cities have items for sale (or are a simple commission away from it). Fixed price: the DMG sets a price to the gp, and sets rules for buying/selling them (buy at full, sell at half). Commonly assumed: these rules will be followed since they are Rules As Written.

I would rather magic item sales be a.) difficult, almost a quest to themselves; b.) at a negotiable price depending on the situation; and c.) at the DM's option.

Surprisingly, the DMG rules in the downtime section do that perfectly. The problem some people are having has been that they are not through enough for my "concern" sentence to be true.

I am not sure you are proving your point. You are actually saying on the one hand you want a fixed price for what the PCs might be able to sell a magic item for, but do not want the PCs to be able to buy under the same rules. Which is fine, but one should be upfront about it. A fixed price is no more subject to abuse than a non-fixed price, especially if one considers the fixed price more of a guideline than a hard and fast price.

I didn't say I wanted a fixed price, but I'm also not stupid enough to allow King Bob to buy a +1 sword for a million gold. However, PCs are generally the ones in want so the market preys upon the needy. Capitalism baby!

And here is how fixed prices screw up the system. Lets say your PC acquires 5,000 gp. He goes to Waterdeep* (or sufficiently large city) and hits the bazaar to buy a +1 amulet of natural armor, a +1 sword, and a +1 cloak of resistance. (The three items are a few hundred over 5k, and the PC can afford it all). However, he goes to the magic sword vendor and the vendor says "Well, there's a war going on near Neverwinter, so +1 swords a 4k each".

The PC is now Angry. He knows the DM is overcharging him, and that "by the rules, he can get the amulet too" since the price for a sword is set. Furthermore, the DM is watering him down for his Wealth Per Level guide since he's effectively stealing 2k away form his proper reward.

However, if the price is a range, the PC can't call the DM for overcharging him since there is no set price. He doesn't like it, don't buy it.

As for the rest of your argument, it does not have to be an either/or sort of thing. Personally, I don't have "magic marts" in my games, but magic is for sale. There are items that are readily available and if the PC wants something not available they have to work for it in some way, order it from afar, pay for middlemen, pay for transport, etc. This allows for haggling, auctioning, con-games and the market to do its thing, while still treating magic as a commodity. Again, as soon as the players want to sell an item or service, magic is a commodity whether you as DM like it or not and you should have some idea what you are going to do about it before hand.

As I said, a few items bought and sold using the DMG guidelines and some common sense economics is enough for me. Picasso's are sold everyday; neither are magic items. What I don't want is the 3e system of expected wealth and PCs with carts of cloaks of resistances (needed to keep NPC math going) and going into town to sell for 500 gp a pop so they can add another plus to their +1 flaming, keen bastard sword. Those days are gone and good riddance!