What's the problem with bringing PCs back from the dead?

[Aus_Snow]

To me, death as merely a speed bump (in most settings) strikes me as boring, unconvincing and just. . . fundamentally wrong.

It's a matter of taste, I guess.

 

[carmachu]

Party death is certainly part of the story. I've been through my fair share of TPKs. But when either party death or resurrection are too common, it has the potential to ruin the story or feel that the DM/GM is trying to create or nurture.

Death really isn't part of continuity, though. Part of the story? Part of the risk? Absolutely. Part of the spectrum that allows the story to continue? Not unless you use Ghostwalk.

It can be. I've had characters saving others and dying, and it has a sense of coninuity to it. YOu know "bob saved me from X, in our quest for Y, It makes us more determined to do Y"

The flip side of that coin was, "Gosh, Bob was a great character. Good backstory, excellent roleplaying. Too bad that orc accidentally critted him with the axe. Oh well. Sucks to be him. And oh look! It's Bob 2!"

A revolving door of characters can start to feel like a medieval Paranoia game.

(I like Paranoia, by the way. Just not in my D&D.)

In that case, He's hovering at deaths door at -9. I'm not willing to let rolls determine the game character. To lose a character over a bunch of dice improbabilities is silly, just as it would to raise him for it.

Now for their own stupidity.....characters are on their own.

We'll see. I'll be interested in see how you handle it in your online game.

Unless its for their own stupidity, it will be heroic deaths, and stay dead. New character will be available however they want to make them. Or new people can play if they wish to bow out.

Its cinematic, so when they die...it will be interesting at least. *grin*

 

[molonel]

Hmmm. Molonel, could you highlight the mortal from classic myth or legend who was successfully raised in that list? I seem to have missed it....

First of all, let's get one thing straight.

You said "myth, legend and fantasy literature."

I totally smoked you on that one. So you have no room to be cocky.

Nevertheless, since you want to keep refining your question until you get the answer you want, I'll smoke you again.

You want a mortal from classic myth or legend? I like how you cleverly removed fantasy literature from the list.)

Hercules, Orpheus's wife (until he turned around, and lost her), Lazarus.

Asklepios was so skilled of a healer that he raised the dead to life.

The Norse Gods were not immortal. That is why they required the Apples of Idunn to renew themselves. So Balder qualifies.

I could dig into the Apocrypha and Gnostic literature if I cared. But that's enough examples.

Also, anyone who's ever been raised more than once would be a big help. Thanks.

Well, for one thing, most world mythologies are not premised on the die once and go to Heaven or Hell theme. So that's a loaded question from the start. In fact, all Eastern mythologies and many pagan mythologies are based on the idea of the eternality of the soul, rather than the Christian fire-and-forget view of the soul. All Eastern myths involve reincarnation. So do most pagan myths. Reincarnation certainly falls under the rubric of Raise Dead, so I'll offer you the takes of the Mahabharata, especially the Bhagavad Gita.

As Arjuna rides his chariot between the two approaching armies, he worries about the state of his soul. His chariot driver, who turns out to be Krishna in disguise, tells him not to worry. None of the warriors who face each other will actually die. They will instead be raised again, and live again.

Next question?

 

[molonel]

It can be. I've had characters saving others and dying, and it has a sense of coninuity to it. YOu know "bob saved me from X, in our quest for Y, It makes us more determined to do Y"

Like I've said, it's all a matter of taste.

That is a perfectly valid way of looking at death in your campaign.

It's just not my preference.

In that case, He's hovering at deaths door at -9. I'm not willing to let rolls determine the game character. To lose a character over a bunch of dice improbabilities is silly, just as it would to raise him for it. Now for their own stupidity.....characters are on their own.

Sounds good.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Thank you for telling me what I want. After 30 years of playing D&D, I always find that helpful and not at all insulting.

After 28 years of D&D, I figured out that D&D wasn't meant to emulate myth, legend or fantasy literature.

If you don't want to hear contrary opinions, don't post on message boards.

 

[Umbran]

I find the concept of unlimited readily available replacement PCs to be more mentally bothersome than unlimited readily available revivication magic.

Oh? Let me draw on a real-world analogy for a moment. It'll fail at many points, but demonstrate a general concept - there are six billion people on our planet. Only a few of them are qualified emergency medicine specialists that can do the closest thing we have to bringing folks back from the dead.

What's more likely - finding someone and becoming their friend, or having that truama specialist handy when you get shot?

The PCs in my game are running into other people and other storylines constantly. They meet NPCs all the time, help deal with (or become one of) their problems, and then move on. The only difference with a new PC is that they stick around for longer. New PCs in my game never just show up and ask to join without motivation. I weave them into the storyline, just like I do all the NPCs.

 

[Slife]

Oh? Let me draw on a real-world analogy for a moment. It'll fail at many points, but demonstrate a general concept - there are six billion people on our planet. Only a few of them are qualified emergency medicine specialists that can do the closest thing we have to bringing folks back from the dead.

What's more likely - finding someone and becoming their friend, or having that truama specialist handy when you get shot?

The PCs in my game are running into other people and other storylines constantly. They meet NPCs all the time, help deal with (or become one of) their problems, and then move on. The only difference with a new PC is that they stick around for longer. New PCs in my game never just show up and ask to join without motivation. I weave them into the storyline, just like I do all the NPCs.

Lemme reverse your argument

There are six billion people on our planet. Only a few of them are able to win a bicycle marathon (the closest thing we have to a high level fighter).

Since there isn't nearly the time limit on raise dead/resurrection that there is IRL... let's say you're Lance Armstrong's coach, and have learned he has an advanced (but curable) case of cancer.

What's more likely - finding another olympic level athelete, becoming their friend, and having them leave their entire life behind in order to risk themselves for a bunch of people they only met a few days ago, or being able to spend enough money to be able to hire a doctor specifically trained to cure that particular form of cancer?

 

[the Jester]

Death really isn't part of continuity, though. Part of the story? Part of the risk? Absolutely. Part of the spectrum that allows the story to continue? Not unless you use Ghostwalk.

I disagree. Sometimes, the story goes, "The heroes died, and the bad guys won. Now, twenty years later, the new heroes have to try to reclaim the kingdom from the evil cult [or whatever]."

It's all about being willing to be flexible with your expectations and not play to a preconceived ending; that way lies a choo-choo ride.

 

[Mokona]

D&D doesn't scale well if the NPCs aren't roughly equal to the heroes or even superior.

A number of arguments favor that the dead stay dead...

In literature and real world myth coming back to life is a cosmic event. It robs the epic feel of the game when life and death are trifles.

I don't randomly kill characters. Thus, if a character dies it is a meaningful event in the story. If they come back to life then the emotion is robbed from the sacrifice or the feeling of loss.

Buffy The Vampire Slayer also illustrated an important point. Heroes who die are rewarded after death. Let the new guy take up the quest for good because the dead hero earned his reward. Only blatant materialism or a Greek take on the afterlife makes every character think life is better than afterlife.

Society would be heavily weighted towards the elderly (rich) if raise dead existed. Many people die of unnatural causes especially in medieval times. The world would be unrecognizable to me if anyone with the money could live as long as he chose to.

It doesn't make sense, in game, if everyone comes back from the dead for anyone not to come back who can. So everyone has to suspend disbelief when one player decides to retire his character that just died for a new character.

 

[Hussar]

Hmmm. Molonel, could you highlight the mortal from classic myth or legend who was successfully raised in that list? I seem to have missed it....

Also, anyone who's ever been raised more than once would be a big help. Thanks.

Well, the classic myth and legend has been nailed nicely, howzabout fantasy lit as well?

Frodo could easily be said to have died before he got to Rivendell and was raised. Not exactly right, but, not a bad stab mechanically either.

The Lion The Witch and the Wardrobe has all sorts of people being brought back to life by Lucy's potion.

The Princess Bride has Miracle Max.

How many stories, movies, cartoons etc. show the dead hero/chick/whatever being cried over by the protagonist, only to sit up when the tear is shed?

I'm generally more concerned with NPC death than PC death.

In a world where resurrection is a matter of price, it's impossible to assassinate a king unless you have conspirators standing by to immediately jump in and take his place - and even then, the conspiracy darn well better have the support of the military or the populace, or preferrably both, because everyone *knows* they could just get the king back if they cared to. Or, you have 'weapons that can kill so you can't be raised,' which then brings the whole problem full circle - if you use those weapons against PCs, they can't be raised either.

Losing a loved one (except to age) basically means an expenditure of gold to a mid- to high-level PC. Rather than coming home from adventure to finding his wife and children murdered and swearing vengeance on the foe who did the foul deed, he comes home, finds them dead, and slips the party cleric a few thousand gp to bring them back. Then he asks them who killed them and puts revenge on his to-do list - for what it's worth, since any halfway competent villain will also be able to come back from the dead at this level.

It's actually *worse* than the superhero cliche that no one stays dead, because people in the setting know what's required to cause it. It's not a genre convention, it's a financial expenditure.

Personally, I prefer to either run grinding, old school dungeon crawls where the death of a dozen PCs is not out of the question, or to take PC death out of the hands of the game mechanics. I no more need the possibility of PC death to be challenged by the 'game' side of D&D than I need a threat to the life and limb of the boot to be challenged by a game of Monopoly.

This ignores the actual mechanics of the game. Family is dead? Bodies burned and the ashes scattered? Now you need True Res. While one is certainly possible, let's see you pony up for four or five of them. Never mind finding that 17th level priest capable of casting the spell for you in the first place.

Killing the king? Hrm, feed the body to a Barghest and now you cannot raise them. Trap the Soul (hey, a king makes some powerful enemies) completely negates raising. Kidnap the king, sit him in front of a medusa until he turns to stone. No res possible. Rend the Sovereign Soul from Relics and Rituals makes Res virtually impossible. Gate in something that kidnaps the king and takes him to whatever plane you want to keep him on for eternity. Bring along a level draining undead when you assassinate, drain him down to 1 HD, whack his Con down with something else, THEN kill him.

The list for getting around Res is lengthy and easily plausible.

Honestly, I find this argument against Resurrection to be rather lacking in imagination. There are a plethora of methods for getting around Res just in the SRD, never mind other sources.