What's up with Finesse?

[Sithobi1]

How do you take a feat without meeting its prerequisite?

 

[Gort]

I'm glad you asked.

I...don't remember.

 

[Hypersmurf]

How do you take a feat without meeting its prerequisite?

He may have been getting confused with Power Attack, which can be taken but not used by a 1st level Rogue...

-Hyp.

 

[Loincloth of Armour]

So they all take it at 3rd level instead, how does that reduce the cookie-cutterness?

Because by 3rd level you've already started to branch out and might have followed other paths (ie: archery rogue) because there wasn't a no-brainer feat to take at 1st level.

Besides, by 3rd you might have multi-classed into something else and need specific feats for that.

Why do rouges have to suffer through two levels of swinging their daggers like big meat cleavers before they develop any style? And if it's such a universally obvious choice, maybe Weapon Finess should just be a class ability of the Rogue. It is, after all, free for Swashbucklers.

Because rogues/bards have training in things other than front-line combat, hence the +0 BAB at level 1. I don't have Combat Warrior or whatever has swashbuckler, but I would assume they have +1 BAB at first level. Extra combat options available to classes at 1st level that specalize in being fighty are a good thing.

And it's not as if waiting until 3rd level to pick up Weapon Finesse will be a death knell for your rogue. It gives you something to look forward to.

 

[hong]

I would do 2 things:

- Remove the +1 BAB prereq for Weapon Finesse

- Add an "Improved Finesse" feat that lets you use Dex with weapons not normally finessable. You need Str 13 to use this feat with a 2-handed weapon (which cuts down on the temptation to make Str a dump stat).

 

[hong]

Because by 3rd level you've already started to branch out and might have followed other paths (ie: archery rogue) because there wasn't a no-brainer feat to take at 1st level.

And why do you believe there are no archery rogues at 1st level...?

 

[nittanytbone]

Perhaps it is there to allow the rogue to discover that they have a role other than hitting things and killing them? The rogue should be focusing on RP ("face" social skills), clever trap detection, removal, and construction, and sneaking/scouting. If he can't take care of himself perfectly in melee, it teaches the neophyte to trust his fighter buddy to watch his back in a brawl and to trust his own skills to solve problems rather than trying to beat it up.

 

[pawsplay]

Because rogues aren't... fighters. A 1st level rogue is by definition not an accomplished fencer. If he were, he would be a fighter, a swashbuckler... or not 1st level.

 

[Mistwell]

Because the vast majority of rogues and bards would take weapon finesse if it were available at 1st level. What other feat could possibly compare for a 1st level rogue or bard? If just about everybody of certain classes take a feat (ie: a no-brainer), then it reduces options and increases cookie-cutterness.

And prereq of Dex 13 is useless: only people with high dex would take Weapon Finesse anyway.

Not in my experience. Rogues tend to be ranged fighters or reach weapon fighters from what I have seen. Melee fighting rogues don't live long, unless they have increased their constitution to the point where they are either no longer skills monkeys at the same rate as other rogues, or no longer have as high a dex.

 

[Stalker0]

At 1st level, often rogues have better ACs than fighters. You can't afford the heavier armors yet, and the rogues dex bonus comes out big. No need to let them hit nearly as well as fighters too.