What's up with Finesse?

[Mistwell]

Sneak attack.

As just calculated above, even if you sneak attack, you are still down by an average of 4 damage. Sneak attack just makes your short sword effectively a greatsword. You're still shorted on damage, even with that!

 

[sfedi]

But a 2nd level wizard with 6 STR and 4 DEX has no problem mastering the estotric combat style of Weapon Finesse should he care too. Makes perfect sense.

And so does a Rogue.

 

[Nail]

As just calculated above, even if you sneak attack, you are still down by an average of 4 damage. Sneak attack just makes your short sword effectively a greatsword. You're still shorted on damage, even with that!

Which is a good thing, generally.

Weapon Finesse should be a higher level (3rd) feat, as it's for higher level (greater than 2nd level) builds.

An orc is dead if it's hit for 5+ hp of damage. A Rogue with a Shortsword (and 10 Str) does 3.5 hp on average...the orc's not dead....but with an additional +3.5 hp of damage from the sneak attack, the orc dies. One strike, one death. So long as the rogue can hit, the orc's probably dead.

Weapon finesse helps the Rogue hit, perhaps as well as the Ftr. So at 1st level, weapon finesse becomes a very powerful feat. By 3rd level, the effect is mitigated, so it's fine there.

That's the point.

 

[Voadam]

Sneak attack.

Str build rogues have just as much sneak attack as dex build rogues, and one more feat than dex based finesse ones.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

As just calculated above, even if you sneak attack, you are still down by an average of 4 damage. Sneak attack just makes your short sword effectively a greatsword. You're still shorted on damage, even with that!

At first level, yes. That's why you shouldn't have Weapon Finesse at first level, as you will feel weak against the fighter if you take it then. Use ranged weapons, they are much safer for you anyway...

 

[green slime]

I agree with Nail.

 

[Mistwell]

At first level, yes. That's why you shouldn't have Weapon Finesse at first level, as you will feel weak against the fighter if you take it then. Use ranged weapons, they are much safer for you anyway...

I don't get it. Both you and Nail took that sentence you are quoting out of context. It was specifically in reply to Nail saying "Sneak Attack" with respect to DAMAGE. Now both of you remove the context and make it all about attack bonus? If you are going to quote me, at least quote it in the spirit of what was written.

Nail said sneak attack makes up for the lack of damage of a dex-based rogue with weapon finesse. I responded it does not, because they are still well behind the fighter on damage at that level. As for attack bonus, my response had nothing to do with that question, so it shouldn't be quote as being about that subject.

 

[Slaved]

I agree with Nail.

I disagree with nail.

Weapon finesse should be an option to use or possibly mandatory with its list of weapons.

The weapons on the list are typically lower damage, one handed weapons with the extra penalty that if you use a shield with an armor check penalty you take that penalty to your attack rolls.

It will not infringe on the guys with full base attack bonus who are using strength. They will still be doing more damage with a greater chance of hitting, assuming equal strength and dex for each as appropriate.

If nothing else those characters who are focused on two weapon fighting that need a high dexterity in order to get two weapon fighting feats could use a little help and costing them one less feat is certainly a way to help them out.

 

[frankthedm]

Weapon finesse helps the Rogue hit, perhaps as well as the Ftr. So at 1st level, weapon finesse becomes a very powerful feat. By 3rd level, the effect is mitigated, so it's fine there.

That's the point.

Yep.

 

[bestone]

We've always used the ruling that WHEN you gain a feat you dont HAVE to learn a feat (so really you gain the option to take a feat, but dont have to). So you can save your level 1 feat, and use it at level 2.

The catch being you can only learn feats when you level. (or otherwise train)

Its actually worked out good and hasnt been game breaking at all thus far