What's up with Finesse?

[Rystil Arden]

Really? Wasn't what happened to me... took until third level to get better armour. Didn't find any better armour wandering around in the wilderness, interfacing with tribes of barbaric peoples.

Aye, in my most recent game, the players have a tendency to let their opponents escape while barely winning. This hasn't done well for their wallets. They just barely hit level 3 out in the woods, and while they could have bought a Full Plate for the tank before they left, they opted for a Wand of Cure Light Wounds, access to a library, and enrollment in a Wizard Academy for the would-be Arcane Trickster instead. Admittedly, they did at least buy her a splint mail--that was the first thing they bought after their first treasure. We've had, I think, 7 sessions.

 

[Rystil Arden]

See, you wouldn't have had this trouble if you started your campaigns at 4th level. BUT NOBODY EVER LISTENS TO ME

True that! Of course, then it wouldn't matter whether Weapon Finesse is 1st or not because you wouldn't have to live through not having it For what it's worth, the Rogue in our game with 16 Dex, 10 Str, and no Weapon Finesse is hurting for it badly, but he played for the long-term and grabbed Practised Spellcaster at level 3 and still doesn't have Weapon Finesse (he is now Rogue2/Wizard1, but previously he was Rogue2),

 

[hong]

True that! Of course, then it wouldn't matter whether Weapon Finesse is 1st or not because you wouldn't have to live through not having it

Well, it matters if you want something that has Finesse as a prereq and you don't really want to wait until 6th level....

 

[Rystil Arden]

Well, it matters if you want something that has Finesse as a prereq and you don't really want to wait until 6th level....

I know nothing core has Finesse as a prereq, and I can't remember anything that was terribly common from non-core that does off the top of my head--are you thinking of something in particular?

 

[hong]

I know nothing core has Finesse as a prereq, and I can't remember anything that was terribly common from non-core that does off the top of my head--are you thinking of something in particular?

That "Improved Finesse" feat I suggested earlier in this thread, BUT AGAIN NOBODY LISTENS TO ME

 

[Stalker0]

This gives the Fighter AC of 15. The Rogue has 17 (and 18 if she takes Chain Shirt).

In my experience, they both would get scale mail. 100 gp is a lot at first level, especially since you should be concerned with things like clothing, weapons, and of course food

So AC 14 vs 17. Fighter has a +6 attack bonus (including weapon focus). Rogue has +4. So the rogue actually has a better chance to hit the fighter than the fighter does the rogue!! He has a better reflex save, and he often goes first (+3 initiative over the fighter).

And of course the rogue has 4 times as many skill points!! I think the a dex based character is good enough that they should have to earn weapon finesse...they certainly shouldn't be given it for free, and they can wait till 3rd level to get teh goodies.

 

[hong]

So AC 14 vs 17. Fighter has a +6 attack bonus (including weapon focus). Rogue has +4. So the rogue actually has a better chance to hit the fighter than the fighter does the rogue!! He has a better reflex save, and he often goes first (+3 initiative over the fighter).

How did this thread go from metaphorical fighter vs rogue to literal fighter vs rogue?

 

[FireLance]

In my experience, they both would get scale mail.

Usually, rogues do not have Medium Armor Proficiency, though.

So AC 14 vs 17. Fighter has a +6 attack bonus (including weapon focus). Rogue has +4. So the rogue actually has a better chance to hit the fighter than the fighter does the rogue!! He has a better reflex save, and he often goes first (+3 initiative over the fighter).

If we assume the fighter has Dex 13, his AC is actually 15. If he decides to use a heavy shield, it goes to 17. If he decides not to use a shield, he can select a two-handed weapon for a big damage boost from base weapon damage and Strength. If he wants to, the fighter can also spend a feat on Improved Initiative.

Even if you remove the BAB prerequisite, a fighter is likely to be a better fighter than a rogue, even at first level, and at second level, he gets another feat and should have access to better armor. Allowing rogues access to Weapon Finesse at 1st level probably won't break the game. Of course, NOT allowing rogues access to Weapon Finesse at 1st level won't break the game, either. I think the game is a lot more resistant to breakage (and a lot fewer things are "unbalanced") than some of us give it credit for.

 

[Rystil Arden]

That "Improved Finesse" feat I suggested earlier in this thread, BUT AGAIN NOBODY LISTENS TO ME

Oh, well assuming that exists, things do change I was assuming in a default setting.

 

[bestone]

In my experience, they both would get scale mail. 100 gp is a lot at first level, especially since you should be concerned with things like clothing, weapons, and of course food

I love it when you tell the players what they should stock up on, like food and other adventuring type gear *blankets and such*. Then the big half orc warrior says buy food? hah i'll eat what i kill.

Fyi, that half orc fighter is no more