What's up with Finesse?

[Li Shenron]

Out of curiosity from you gurus of game design and theory...

What was the reasoning behind making it impossible for a class such as a Bard or Rogue from being able to take Weapon Finesse at 1st level. It seems unduly harsh to make those two classes (who arguably are the most likely to take it) wait till 3rd until they are able to take it.

I would think a requirement like Dex 13 would be a better prerequisite.

Anyway, what do you all think?

Some of the designers once said, very soon after the 3.5 revision was printed, that they had in mind to remove the BAB prerequisite at some point during the revision but probably it became forgotten in the process...

 

[Li Shenron]

As an extra question relating to the first.

Why is finesse a feat at all? Why is it not just an extra option of use, or mandatory use, with certain weapons?

It could be, but so could be Power Attack, Two Weapon Fighting, Expertise, and many others...

At design level it has to be decided what is free and what "costs" you something, but there isn't a universally better choice between the two.

 

[Darklone]

And IMHO TWF was nerfed because the style needs too many feats to be worthwhile.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Weapon Finesse at first level wouldn't make a rogue as good a melee combatant as a fighter. Let's say a strong (18 str) fighter and a dextrous (18 dex) rogue walk into the same fight. The strong fighter adds 4 from strength and 1 from BAB. The Dextrous rogue without weapon finesse adds whatever low str he has (let's arbitrarily say 13, so +1) to a 0 BAB. The fighter is ahead by 4. Now let's add weapon finesse to the rogue. The fighter is still swinging a 5, but the optimized rogue is swinging a 4 (18 dex + 0 BAB), not exactly what I would call an equal combatant, especially since there aren't any dex to damage feats and he is most likely swinging a short sword. Let's give the rogue the best possible outcome and say he successfully sneak attacks (but does not crit). He'll be doing greatsword damage, but still only have a +1 to damage from strength, compared to the fighter who could be using an actual greatsword for greatsword damage, wielded two-handed for strength and a half (6 in this case) damage. So the rogue with a feat he is not allowed to take will get a score 1 lower for the attack role and do 5 less damage, which at first level is at least one entire mook's worth of hp. And we didn't even let the fighter take his first two feats yet.

DJC

You forgot about AC, though. To make the comparison fair, let's say that symmetrically, the fighter has 13 Dex. The Fighter starts with 150 GP per the PH, assuming average. Since he won't own a Greatsword if he spends that all on Chainmail, the best he can be wearing is either Scale Mail or Chain Shirt (both of which give him +4 AC, though Scale Mail is cheaper and slows him down). Let's say he has Chain Shirt so we don't have to deal with speed issues. The Rogue has 125 GP and may also have a Chain Shirt. But let's be nice to the Fighter and say the Rogue took Studded Leather for the lower ACP.

This gives the Fighter AC of 15. The Rogue has 17 (and 18 if she takes Chain Shirt).

 

[hong]

You forgot about AC, though. To make the comparison fair, let's say that symmetrically, the fighter has 13 Dex. The Fighter starts with 150 GP per the PH, assuming average. Since he won't own a Greatsword if he spends that all on Chainmail, the best he can be wearing is either Scale Mail or Chain Shirt (both of which give him +4 AC, though Scale Mail is cheaper and slows him down). Let's say he has Chain Shirt so we don't have to deal with speed issues. The Rogue has 125 GP and may also have a Chain Shirt. But let's be nice to the Fighter and say the Rogue took Studded Leather for the lower ACP.

This gives the Fighter AC of 15. The Rogue has 17 (and 18 if she takes Chain Shirt).

But the fighter also has 4 more hit points, and 2 more feats....

 

[Rystil Arden]

But the fighter also has 4 more hit points, and 2 more feats....

This is true. And it is reasonably likely that one of those feats is Weapon Focus, for another +1 to hit. The difference in HP is nice, but given, say, 14 Con for each of them, they are both going down in a single hit from the self-same Fighter, a Greataxe Orc Barbarian 1, etc, and they'll take two hits to drop from something that does more reasonable damage (say, 6 or 7). And when you only have one or two hits in you to stay up, AC becomes all the more critical if you're stuck in melee (and both of the proposed characters would be). All in all, I'd be willing to give the advantage to the Fighter, barely. But Rogues have enough other things going for them that it shouldn't be that close. Now, by level 3, the HP gradient has increased to about 8, and the Fighter has grabbed another feat and better armour. Despite an increase in Sneak Attack, the fighter has grabbed the advantage back strongly enough.

 

[Darklone]

Most fighters I've seen start with sword and board or a polearm. The first option gives them a pretty good AC, the second one frees them from needing a good AC.

 

[hong]

This is true. And it is reasonably likely that one of those feats is Weapon Focus, for another +1 to hit. The difference in HP is nice, but given, say, 14 Con for each of them, they are both going down in a single hit from the self-same Fighter, a Greataxe Orc Barbarian 1, etc, and they'll take two hits to drop from something that does more reasonable damage (say, 6 or 7). And when you only have one or two hits in you to stay up, AC becomes all the more critical if you're stuck in melee (and both of the proposed characters would be). All in all, I'd be willing to give the advantage to the Fighter, barely. But Rogues have enough other things going for them that it shouldn't be that close.

But they need to be that close if they're going to be taking advantage of that Weapon Finesse!

Now, by level 3, the HP gradient has increased to about 8, and the Fighter has grabbed another feat and better armour.

Actually, after 1 adventure, the fighter has grabbed better armour. I seriously doubt that being stuck with scale mail for 1 session is really that big an issue in balancing terms.

 

[green slime]

But they need to be that close if they're going to be taking advantage of that Weapon Finesse!



Actually, after 1 adventure, the fighter has grabbed better armour. I seriously doubt that being stuck with scale mail for 1 session is really that big an issue in balancing terms.

Really? Wasn't what happened to me... took until third level to get better armour. Didn't find any better armour wandering around in the wilderness, interfacing with tribes of barbaric peoples.

 

[hong]

See, you wouldn't have had this trouble if you started your campaigns at 4th level. BUT NOBODY EVER LISTENS TO ME