What's Up With The Monk?

[LokiDR]

I have often considered on level of monk for the abilities. However, that only makes the FIRST LEVEL good, much like ranger. And in most of the cases where I considered it, I decided on advance the other, PRIMARY class, unless I really wanted/needed the saves and evasion.

As for how well monks combo with spell casters: it could be interesting, but over all I would want more spells. Combo with fighter and the armor is in your way. Combo with barbarian, and you alignment smaks you. Rangers would be the only decent choice, but they are another class that gets all their tricks at first level. On top of that, the ranger doesn't bring anything to the table, except a BAB that doesn't stack with the unarmed BAB.

Single class, at low levels, I think monks suck. I also don't see them multiclassing well. Is there something obvious I am missing?

 

[Villano]

Re: Re: My Experience

actually in the core point buy with higher stats costing more the monk is one of the better choices. Under even 25 point buy you can make a decent many above average stat character, and the monk gain extra bennies for each of those stats. While one stat characters are motivated to foolishly spend extra points in stats past 14 even though the bonus doesn't increase inline with the cost, monks have a good rules mechanic reason to bump up str,dex,con,wis so they never seem to fall into that trap.

It isn't foolish for a one stat PC to put his extra points into one ability since, well, he only needs that one ability. After all, most fighters don't need, say, a 14 in cha (or even a 10 in most cases).

I think that most people agree that monks have to spread themselves thinner than most. Granted, cha isn't really necessary, but everything else is.

The big sticking point for me is the AC. In most of the point buy games I've been in, the best I could have done had I chosen to be a monk is 14 or 15.

And while the people who suggest that the monk is a great character to fill in for an absent rogue are correct, most people would rather just play the rogue.

Like I said before, the monk is missing a niche. Granted, there are a few people who have offered possibilites, but the fact that no one can agree on one (or even if there is one) kind of proves that there isn't. After all, everyone agrees on the role of the fighter, ranger, mage, rogue, etc. immediately.

True, as some have pointed out, the monk is good at more things than any other class. The problem is that he isn't great at one thing. And, let's face it, people want to play heroes, and heroes are great, not merely "good".

 

[Hopping Vampire]

My opinion is , Ranger is the weakest class. They have a weak armor selection AND they have very weak spells. to get the best out of your monk, i suggest using the skills n feats martial arts system (ww.sleepingimperium.rpghost.com). this gives monks alot of the advantages they need.

 

[Tyrion]

I'm thinking of implementing a house rule for Monks: every four levels, starting at level 2, they get an unnamed bonus to one ability score...a total of 5 extra points after 18 levels. This will have a few advantages: it fits with the concept of a Monk (ie. mastery and continous improvement of mind and body), decreases the suffering from their dependence on too many ability scores, and allows customization (Want skills? Go INT. Damage? STR. And so on).

It might be a bit overpowered though. What do you think?

 

[hong]

The monk seems specifically designed for those places where a fighter/rouge is screwed.

rogue

Sneaking around and taking out the back line is specialized rouge.

rogue

If you don't have one of these rouges, then the monk is good.

rogue


Sorry.

 

[LokiDR]

so I can't spell. At least I was consistant

 

[Will]

I've been grimacing at 'rouge' for a week now. Thanks.

Tzarevitch:
"damage on average than the Str bonus does). Magic weapons help with the hit problem but the monk tends to use obscure weapons that are rarely ever found. "

I've heard this from a variety of sources. Uh. What?

DMG 'common melee' table for magic weapons lists kama, nunchaku, and siangham, each at about 4%. So you are as likely to find a kama as a dagger.

Um. How is that rare? Monk weapons are about 1 in 8 of found weapons.

I have the feeling most people house rule this, or rarely use monks as NPCs. If so, well.. that's hardly a fair complaint.

 

[LokiDR]

I've been grimacing at 'rouge' for a week now. Thanks.

Tzarevitch:
"damage on average than the Str bonus does). Magic weapons help with the hit problem but the monk tends to use obscure weapons that are rarely ever found. "

I've heard this from a variety of sources. Uh. What?

DMG 'common melee' table for magic weapons lists kama, nunchaku, and siangham, each at about 4%. So you are as likely to find a kama as a dagger.

Um. How is that rare? Monk weapons are about 1 in 8 of found weapons.

I have the feeling most people house rule this, or rarely use monks as NPCs. If so, well.. that's hardly a fair complaint.

I have to agree that when you don't like monks as a GM, you don't tend to put in monk weapons. However, I have been rolling all the treasure for my game for a while now. There has only been one monk weapon.

Why don't we talk about monks at range for a moment. Shurikens are the crappiest weapon in the game, unless you find a good loophole for them, like sneak attack before errata. Monk's really lack at range, and they can't always jump.

 

[Plane Sailing]

shuriken "loophole" = poison. They are the best poison delivery system bar none. Of course, that was one of their main uses IRL

If I wanted to make a fighting monk (because the party didn't have a main fighter) I'd max out my Str and secondly Con. I'd leave Int, Wis and Cha at average (possibly push Int up to 13 so I could get Expertise). Since it is a party game I'd rely on my wizard friend to cast Mage Armour on me (until I got bracers of armour) or my cleric friend to cast magic vestment on my clothes. I'd also get my cleric friend to cast shield of faith on me for the deflection bonus to AC until I get a ring of deflection.

Basically, if my monk was to be the main front line fighter, protecting the magic using classes, then I'd rely upon their help for AC and buffing spells rather than pinning my hopes on a high Dex and Wis. This kind of monk can easily sacrifice Wisdom, at 1st level with a 12 dex he could be AC 17 (+4 from mage armour, +2 from shield of faith), with his 18 Str which he gets to add to all his flurries fully (yah boo sucks to the rangers!) He can attack once at +4 for 1d6+4, or twice for +2/+2 for 1d6+4 each. He might have 11-12 hp at 1st level (depending upon where his Con sits in the 16-18 league). He would be perfectly able to discharge his role in the party should he so desire. Thats what I'd do in the situation.

(as a DM, the monk-based characters have tended to have high survivability through having the highest AC of all in a magic-item poor world such as I run. In a game in which I play the monk probably does more damage than anyone other than the strong dwarf with the 2H sword and easily holds her own with the other fighters in the front line. Not everyones experience, clearly, but it has certainly worked for some!)

Cheers

 

[LokiDR]

shuriken "loophole" = poison. They are the best poison delivery system bar none. Of course, that was one of their main uses IRL

(as a DM, the monk-based characters have tended to have high survivability through having the highest AC of all in a magic-item poor world such as I run. In a game in which I play the monk probably does more damage than anyone other than the strong dwarf with the 2H sword and easily holds her own with the other fighters in the front line. Not everyones experience, clearly, but it has certainly worked for some!)

Cheers

First, it seems a bit strange that "Lawful" class would use poison, but it does work out well. I guess it depends on local laws and how you define alignment.

Second, it seems you have found one of those situations where the monk thrives: low magic items. If all the other fighters had +3 weapons, would the situation change? Monks benefit from not being so item dependant. This turns around when the monk is around of lot of items that they can't really use.

"Wow, that is a really nifty Magic Mirthral Mercural Greatsword, but I'll never be able to use it."