What's Up With The Monk?

[apsuman]

Finally, the monk got a good deal of thought and disscussion, which should make him deadlier. If it was another class, I would see the character doing a lot of damage. I didn't think the monk could do anything. I have slowly changed my mind on that. I don't see the CR discussion as being anything more than way to show through the rules that the monk shouldn't suck in the encounter. As for the calculator, I have nothing against it, just wasn't offical. This discussion has pointed out several holes in game where monks are concerned, why would this be any diffenent?

True, there was thought and discussion, but I did not make the monk just for this party, I tried to make a monk that I would want to play in general, one that would be fun to play.

An optimized monk would have a few beads of force, no magic weapon, potions or other one-shot ways to make haste, and bracers or armor, gloves of dex, a ring of prot, amulet of nat. armor, ring of jumping, and a few other things.

g!

 

[Hakkenshi]

Certainly for this type of encounter, any character's odds are improved by stacking up on one-shot items. That gives greater variety, costs less, and is generally better. Plus it doesn't give your characters a bunch of good magic items

Potion of Haste + Necklace of Missiles = 2 Fireballs in a surprise round, unless I'm mistaken. Pretty nasty.

 

[LokiDR]

Originally posted by apsuman

Monk do well against other PC types. This monk has a 16 STR because I wanted him to get a belt of Giant STR ( I later ruled it out) so that he could challenge a fighter with a grapple/bull rush/trip. When fighting a centaur you must use different tactics, which is fine.

It also means that the average level of the party is actually higher than 5.2 ...

+2 ECL for a reincarnate as a centaur seems about right, as there are some nice stat boosts. That still only puts the party at APL 5.6 Up, but not amazingly so. Since you knew there was a centaure, you probably weren't going to try tripping him any way. In another case, it might have been really interesting. I am glad you went for the general case though.

Originally posted by apsuman
some one pulled a quote about what would be a challenge to a party, and it said something like +1 to +4 levels above would this level of challenge, and +5 to something else would this type of challenge, etc.

With that quote in mind, I was saying that depending on the party level, a +1 level challenger might not be much of a challenge. FOR EXAMPLE, if you had a party of 4 level 1 characters, a level 2 barbarian or fighter probably is a BIG challenge.

If you had a party of level 5 characters and they faced a level six wizard, that would be a a tough challenge because the wizard would have firebell/lightning bolt/haste, an extra feat they the party members do not have, more magic items, etc.

So, my inference is that this party of five, with two people at level 6 (including a wizard) and one that is a centaur with those benefits, is closer to being a level 6+ party and will be less challenged by a level 7 opponent than a level 5 party facing a level 6 opponent.

Basically, the relative threat of a character being one level higher diminishes as the party gains levels.

True, there is less of threat at higher levels, since the difference is pretty minute by that point. But this is low to mid level. I would have to guess this is where the rule was aimed at. If it only works on 1st level characters, why write the rule? I also don't think the difference is THAT dependant on where the break is. Your wiz 6 vs APL 5 party would probably favor the wizard more if the wiz had 4th level spells, as you comments below indicate...

Originally posted by apsuman
Imp. Invis (level 4 right?) would be more efficient.

And this is a fine strategy, however, I tried to exclude level 7 wizards because of their arsenal of spells.

But since you mentioned it... As soon as you cast fireball, everyone will be after you. If you cast summons first then you can stay invisible, but if creatues just start showing up, someone (the party wizard) will figure out what is going on, adn they shoudlbe looking for you. If you cast summons while invisible, you will stay that way, but lose full round actions due to the casting times. You only have so many second level spell slot, so repeated invisibility would take away some of your buffing spells of that level.

Parties should be equipeed to handle invisible opponets. Now, flying invisible opponents are another thing altogether.

and there is no reason the sorceror couldn't be flying and invisible. Fireballs could be scrolls bought from other sources. And I find a lot of parties are not equiped to handle invis oppnents well enough. Improved invis would be nice, but I think you can do a lot a damage without it.

Originally posted by apsuman
But rogues do not get sneak attacks every round. They can not sneak quickly, they have to be in melee or in 30' range to do the sneak attack damage, the barbarian could close that distace quickly.

And as for Fighter/Barbarian types I would thing that as soon as they showed up the parties front line fighters would just engage him, 2-to-1 and he would not last long.

The barbarian would have a good chance if they couldn't gang up, like a 5' wide tunel. The sneak attacks would have to be set up well, like an arrow ally. Neither of these options are really availible to the monk.

Originally posted by apsuman
You really think that a Barbarian would be able to run in and kill a third to half of the party? I would be really really surprized. Same with a fighter, ranger, bard, and cleric. Druids might do this job better but should still be beaten back pretty quickly.

Which is my point I think the monk would make a fine adversary to this party for a challenge and would do as well, or perhaps better than any other class except the wizard.

If the monk is just killed/beaten/subdued/captured as fast as any other class then it shows that they are just as good (or bad) as any other class.

g!

I don't think the barbarian would kill 1/3 to 1/2 the party. I do think he could take 1/3 to 1/2 of the parties total hp, as new oppents step up to him.

I guess, to be fair, I should perform this test on the party multiple times and see if they all kind of suck. So, where was that lvl 10 barbarian some one posted If you don't think this isn't a perfect test, I say....ok. it isn't. It should say something about monk abilities though, and that is what I am interested in more than anything else.

 

[Hakkenshi]

Now if you made the MONK flying and invisible...THAT would be funny

 

[LokiDR]

Now if you made the MONK flying and invisible...THAT would be funny

Monk, ivisible stalker with a mage friend? Ooo, that just sounds fun.

 

[Hakkenshi]

I think the word you're looking for is "EVIL".
Still, "fun" fits the bill almost as well

By the by, remember to keep us posted when the fight actually happens. I'm curious.

 

[Scion]

ecounter level and such

hopefully this will help, should have posted earlier but I figured someone else would.. anyway

dmg page 100 challenge ratings and encounter levels

this is pretty close to one of the arguments, it says here that challenge ratings are based on parties of four characters, I know it says it elsewhere, but this one quote should fix that problem

it also says that groups of more characters would take on equal challenge ratings much easier

on page 101 of the dmg there is a chart, lets come from the point of view of the happy go lucky monk guarding the whatever place shall we?

monk comes across the party, it averages out as basically a 6th level part ( 2 x 5, 2 x 6, 1 x 7) (*imho +8 str, +4 con, +4 dex, +2 natural, increased move, resistance to a lot of special attacks would be +3 levels, then again, +8 str is pretty much equal to +2)
anyway though, tangent

going with the chart he sees 5 characters roughly 6th level average.. moving over this encounter is roughly EL 11.. so, if he had three other people just like him to make a 7th level party they would still be under by 4 levels.. in other words, overpowering for a party of himself, and EXTREMELY! impossible for one.. any non-spellcasting character who did this battle would be lucky to get through 2 rounds, max.. the spellcasters have more tricks so are harder to judge

so just from this it seems that he doesnt have a chance to scare them off, nor would said barbarian, fighter, paladin, ranger, rogue.. whatever, it is just too far above there level

now, if you are able to change terrain to his own purposes then yes, anyone could beat this party off, even a single level 1 kobold.. that isnt the point

unless you take drastic measures for terrain he will have no chance, no non-spellcaster would, the challenge before them is a good challenge (potentially have to run away) for your group vs four 7th level npcs.. putting pc gear on him helps a little, but not even enough to make him count as two people, let alone 4

hope that helps ;/ its not a question of how much damage will be done, its a question of whether it will even take 2 rounds to completely decimate said 'guardian' without changing the entire environment to suit this 'guardian'

 

[LokiDR]

I think the word you're looking for is "EVIL".
Still, "fun" fits the bill almost as well

By the by, remember to keep us posted when the fight actually happens. I'm curious.

Evil is fun And don't worry about posting the results, I am just as curious what the reaction will be as to what the outcome itself is.

 

[LokiDR]

Scion, I think you have missed the point. You are quit correct that the monk doesn't really stand a chance of winning. Nothing ~CR 7 would. Every one agrees on that.

Now to the question of how long it would take to go down. A hill giant has lots of HP and could stand punishment for a while. Does the hill giant have a chance against, from his point of view, a CR 11? Not even close.

A CR at your parties level is supposed to consume 20~25% of your resources. An encounter at +1 to +4 your APL is supposed to be "very difficult" and something you should consider running from. I don't have a DMG, and these are not in the SRD as far as I can tell, but the pages of these facts have been posted before. A full strength party APL should be able to maul a hill giant, but maybe they shouldn't risk the loss of life.

The monk's prospective is not an issue here. If I was the PC, put into that position, I would run. NPCs, for one reason or another don't. The odds are very stacked in favor of the party. Now the question remains: will the monk be able to take a bite out of them before he goes down or runs? If he can't do anything, maybe he really isn't a CR7, or maybe the monk class is weak on combat (which it is). It was a fairly standard kind of situation for the monk, one that he isn't perfect for, but might be ok at. The barbarian would take a much bigger chunk out the PCs I think.

As for terrain, the monk knows it, could add simple traps in out the way places. He can pick the size of corridor to attack in. He can head them off. He can lead them off to get lost. All of these make him more deadly. He can't just collapse the ceiling on the PCs, since he is supposed to guard the catacombs, but there are many other things he can do.

If the monk is slautered easily, which I don't see as likely, he was either badly designed for his class or his class is holding him back. That is why the monk fight was a decent test, better than monk vs hill giant.

 

[apsuman]

True, there is less of threat at higher levels, since the difference is pretty minute by that point. But this is low to mid level. I would have to guess this is where the rule was aimed at. If it only works on 1st level characters, why write the rule? I also don't think the difference is THAT dependant on where the break is. Your wiz 6 vs APL 5 party would probably favor the wizard more if the wiz had 4th level spells, as you comments below indicate...

I will try again, at certain levels, having an opponet that is one level higher will be a big challenge. It will depend up on the character, the character concept, and the level of the party.

I have used higher parites to illustrate my point (apparnetly badly).

at level 1, a level 2 ftr/bar is a BIG challenge.

at level 5, a level 6 wiz (but not a sor, imho) is a BIG challenge.

for this party of level x.2, no character of level seven will be a big challenge except maybe a wizard, imho.

and there is no reason the sorceror couldn't be flying and invisible. Fireballs could be scrolls bought from other sources. And I find a lot of parties are not equiped to handle invis oppnents well enough. Improved invis would be nice, but I think you can do a lot a damage without it.

Not many can handle invisiblity well, true. But they should and it is their fault if they don't.

Imp. Invisible, being a 4th level spell is available to level 7 wizards but not sorcerers, and using it would make for an even more dangerous wizard.

But invisiblity does not make invulnerability. Casting darkness and relying the feat blind fighting might be the best option for the party.

The barbarian would have a good chance if they couldn't gang up, like a 5' wide tunel. The sneak attacks would have to be set up well, like an arrow ally. Neither of these options are really availible to the monk.

True choosing the terrain would make a difference for the fight.

But nobody else could set up arrow alley and have the sneak attack damage.

Nobody else gets rage.

Nobody else gets the fighter feats.

Everybody is different.


g!