What's wrong with... Divine Power?

[Xahn'Tyr]

If a Persistent Divine Power gave a cleric all the feats and equipment of a 15th level fighter, then I would worry about it. As it is, if a 15th level fighter goes into battle with only an 18 (modified) Strength, and if that fighter has used all of his feats on things like Extend Spell and Persistent Spell, then that fighter deserves to feel weak, because he is an idiot.

By 15th level, most fighters will have a buffed strength over 18. They will have at least 9 more feats than the cleric and they will not have had to use any on caster abilities. They will have combat-oriented equipment and they will not be expected to be healing the rest of the party during a fight. If, given all of those advantages, you cannot outfight a cleric with this spell going, then you really aren't pulling your weight to begin with. Don't weaken the cleric, tell your fighter to get his act together!

 

[Rashak Mani]

http://www.dmsmiscellany.com/judge/featdetail.asp?ID=31

This is a site with judgements about Feats ... the Persistent was judged OK

Check it out...

 

[ruleslawyer]

Hold on.

Persistent divine power requires the use of one 8th-level spell and two feats, both of which are highly useful anyway, especially for clerics. (Extend Spell is great with all ability-boosting and resistance-providing spells, as well as GMW and magic vestment; Persistent Spell is worth it almost solely for persistent divine favor).

This 15th-level cleric will have:

-Persistent divine favor (+5 to combat rolls)
-Bull's strength (possibly empowered and/or maximized)
-GMW (+5 bonus on top of other properties, anyone?)
-Harm (bye-bye hit points)
-Righteous might (for reach and an extra +4 Strength to boot)

This is in addition to all the other stuff this cleric may have due to domain spells and abilities (he could have fly, haste, true strike, smite either by spell or ability, etc etc.).

You know what I'll choose on this poll. IMHO, divine power is too strong unless the spell is errata'd to be like 1e/2e Tenser's transformation and prevent spellcasting during its duration. I have no problems with the Persistent Spell feat; it's this one spell that's annoying, precisely because it grants the cleric important fighter class abilities (BAB and extra damage) without costing anything.

 

[Victim]

"-Persistent divine favor (+5 to combat rolls)
-Bull's strength (possibly empowered and/or maximized)
-GMW (+5 bonus on top of other properties, anyone?)
-Harm (bye-bye hit points)
-Righteous might (for reach and an extra +4 Strength to boot)"

In theory, some of those spells go on the fighter too. If they aren't, then the cleric is essentially screwing over the fighter and trying to grandstand.

I think that game balance assumes team players.

However, the same 8th level slot that holds persistent divine power could also hold a Mass Heal, which can heal thousands! of hp worth of damage or do worse to undead. 8th level slots are pretty powerful.

At 15th level, a cleric throwing out death effects will probably be scarier than one that wants to be fighter. After all, melee damage usually comes slow enough for healing to arrive and full HP can restored to multiple people instantly at that level.

 

[IanB]

I'd like to second the idea of changing persistent spell to the 'increasing time category' model - 1 round to 1 minute, 1 minute to 10 minutes, etc. It might be worth considering lowering the level modification to +3 in this case...

 

[Crothian]

I'd like to second the idea of changing persistent spell to the 'increasing time category' model - 1 round to 1 minute, 1 minute to 10 minutes, etc. It might be worth considering lowering the level modification to +3 in this case...

Ya, but what do 1/hour per level go to? 1/day a level? THat makes the Bull Strength type spells really effective.

 

[Allister]

Well, the 1 hr/lvl spell become a 1day spell. Thus, the maximum a personal spell can last is 1 day.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, the 1 hr/lvl spell become a 1day spell. Thus, the maximum a personal spell can last is 1 day.

Well, 40 hours, with Extend Spell.

-Hyp.

 

[Crothian]

Well, 40 hours, with Extend Spell.

-Hyp.

And that's where a problem lies. A weaker metamagic feat is more efective. I think there are people who would term that "Broken". I just think it needs rethought.

 

[Hypersmurf]

In fact... by the time you can cast Persistent versions of the common 1 hour Buff spells - Bull's Strength, Endurance - the 2nd level ones - you're at least 11th level.

For the same slot, you could cast a 4x Extended version, lasting 55 hours.

Persistent Spell is a waste once you hit hour/level durations regardless.

-Hyp.