What's wrong with high-level/epic play?
- Thread starter Kerrick
- Start date
Well, you ideally want a +26 to your saves so you at least have a 50% chance of making it.
Here's the expanded version. Again, thanks to dicefreaks (if any of you are here) for coming up with it in the first place. Again, I must stress that this is not how you must run your game, but more a guideline to let you know how your PC can be expected to fare in epic.
[sblock]
- Attacks Non-templated CR 21 creatures averaged an AC of 37, with a standard deviation of 6. This means that most of the armor classes for CR 21 creatures can be found in a spread between AC 25 and AC 49. If we take the Mu Spore out (since it is significantly lower in its AC), we get an average AC of 40, with a standard deviation of only 2. This gives us a tighter, more realistic figure to work with (AC will tend to be between 36 and 44). This means that a 21st level tank, whose iconic role is to be able to hit and hurt, needs to have an attack bonus that hits AC 40 on as many attacks as possible. This does not take into account the higher AC average for paragon creatures (50, std dev 2).
- Touch Attacks Once again, I've taken the Mu Spore out of the mix of analysis - a quick look at its stats will show why I treat it as an anomaly in the AC dept! Average touch AC is only 15 (std dev 2). This figure is a lot easier to hit, but should not be easily obtained with a magic item (eg a perma-wraithstrike weapon should not be cheap!). Feats, class abilities, expensive magic items - these are all appropriate ways to target a touch AC instead of a full AC for a tank or other weapon-user (as opposed to spell/power-user). This stat may be more important to focus on for the wizard or other spellcaster; ranged touch attack spells often have no saving throw, so they should quickly become a mainstay of your offense. Paragon creatures average touch AC 42 (std dev 3).
- Flat-footed Attacks Only slightly better than true AC, the average for flat-footed AC here (sans the Mu Spore) is 37 (std dev 5). Paragons are only slightly higher at 41 (std dev 3).
- Armor Class Since non-paragon creatures average first attacks of +37 (std dev is 4, so generally the best you will face for CR 21 is an attack bonus of no more than +45 - I don't have paragon figures yet), you want an AC of at least 10 pts higher - 47. This means the creature has a 50% chance of hitting you on its primary attacks. More importantly, it means that the monster can't treat you as a Power Attack magnet. If a creature can hit you harder and still hit, it generally will do so (short of DM plot device).
- Hit Points How tough should you be? This is a difficult question, since you should be relying on some buffs in combat, plus healing, to mitigate what may be relatively low hit points. CR 21 creatures (not paragon) average 122 pts of damage in a round where they hit with all their attacks (includes additional damage for chance of crits). You probably want to have hp about 150% of that figure - 183hp - at a minimum if you are going toe to toe. If you have a higher AC than is strictly needed, or decent fast healing/regen/damage reduction, or other generally effective damage countermeasures (total concealment - beware of true seeing - can help offset lower hp, for example), you can get by on less. But if you have less than the 183hp, you run the risk of dying in a single round - better hope you have a cleric handy with revivify on hand (or, even better, a contingent version!).
- Special Ability save DCs At 21st level, you can still hope for some save or die spells to be of use. Average Fort saves (not paragon) are +25; Ref saves are about +20; Will saves are about +21. Your special ability save DCs need to offer some chance of breaking through those saves. If you have limited access to the ability, you would want at least a 50% chance of getting through the saving throws. If you have extensive access, and are willing to spam the use of the ability, you might accept as low as a 10% chance (20% is better, obviously). The guidelines assume the former situation - limited availability - in which case save DCs should aim for a DC of 35. This is already quite difficult to do, and may not be worth the wealth impact (eg a Str based special ability could have a DC of 10 + 1/2 levels (21) + Str mod (needs 40 in this case) to hit the suggested DC. If you start with a 20 in Str (18 + racial mod), spend all your level increases to 21st level on Str (+5), have an inherent +5 bonus to Str (+5), you would still need to depend on an item of Str +6 and a spell that grants a non-enhancement bonus to Str of +4 in order to hit that DC). Note that some abilities become increasingly redundant in epic levels - mind-affecting spells, for example. As the needed DC increases, you will find that limited availability special abilities with saves simply aren't worth focusing on from a numbers point of view.
- Skills - Where opposed skills are a concern, the monsters at CR 21 (non-paragon) have an average of 32 Hit Dice. That means that their best skills will be at 35 ranks, plus ability modifiers. You should expect to need a +40 in skills that involve opposed checks, in order to be on roughly even footing. To be effective, increase by 10 to +50. If you are relying on feinting on combat...you will find it increasingly harder to use it effectively (since BAB plus Sense Motive check is involved for the monster - not good when facing most epic Outsiders in particular!).
- Damage - CR 21 creatures average 385hp, but also tend to have fast healing, damage reduction, regeneration, resistances, or immunities as damage-mitigators. If you aim for 1/4 of that total per round, or 96hp damage per round as a minimum, you should be able to punch through those hp fairly quickly (which is important - protracted fights drain more resources, and many epic creatures simply have too much staying power for you to afford a long battle with them). This damage dealing ability should be looked at over the entire party, such that one character can be in excess of this amount, and another beneath, so long as it all adds up to 4 x 96. Note that the fewer the number of attacks that you have that you deal the damage in, the better - because that way more damage affects the creature, instead of being deflected away with damage mitigators.
- Saves - SLA save DCs are lower than SuA or ExA save DCs at this stage, so the focus is on SuA and ExA save DCs from the monsters. The key number is 26 - 10 less than the average for such abilities at this CR. If your worst save equals 26, then you will pass your saves better than 50% of the time. Generally speaking, Reflex saves can be lower than this figure, due to the lack of save-or-die (or similar) Reflex save effects/abilities.
- Speed and Maneuverability - It is much harder to provide a definite speed requirement for a 21st level PC than with many other figures. It is perhaps more important to understand the speed of the enemies, and prepare accordingly. Land speeds, for creatures that rely on them, are now at least 40 ft or better, and generally 60 ft. Flight speed of the chichimec is 200 ft (perfect), and dragons are pulling up to 300 ft. (admittedly with far worse maneuverability...but that speed should not be discounted!). To top it off, many Outsiders have already have greater teleport at will for several CR ratings prior to this point, meaning that even if land speed is down, the ability to quickly seize an opportunity remains a huge advantage to the enemy - if you allow it to be. I would suggest that long-term flight be available to a 21st level PC (the fly spell by itself may suffice for your purposes, depending on your strategy with dealing with faster creatures), and generally I have seen PCs using my guidelines prefer to bump their speed up to much higher levels - such as fly 150 ft., using the ring of solar wings, and even higher by coupling with the admittedly-in-need-of-revision boots of swiftness. Haste increases speed, if you want to do things on the cheap - and that includes fly speeds - such that you can fly 90 ft (or 70 ft in medium or heavy armor) with the application of only two relatively low level spells. You can get around being slower than your enemy if you have to, but it is better to at least be comparable. Sun Tzu wrote ""What is of the greatest importance in war is extraordinary speed: One cannot afford to neglect opportunity." If your enemy is more mobile and more versatile than your are, then the battle will often not go well for you. Another Sun Tzu quote for you all: "Speed is the essence of war. Take advantage of the enemy's unpreparedness; travel by unexpected routes and strike him where has taken no precautions."
- Resistances and Immunities - The final comment I have to make on play at this level is to take note of those attacks which kill you quickly. Death effects are nasty, so immunity is important. Same with negative levels. Sheltered vitality protects against ability damage, spell immunity should probably include any of the blasphemy type spells in its list of what you are protected against, and disjunction can be counterspelled with a Contingent Spell of the same name set up for that purpose. Clerics should be packing revivify, energy immunity (or at least protection from energy and resist energy), your typical heals and restorations, and a whole lot of other useful spells. Don't fool yourself into thinking that grappling will go your way at epic levels! Pack an item with continuous freedom of movement, or else go the Contingent Spell route again and do what you can to protect against the contingency being dispelled. There is an awful lot that could be considered here, so I can really only say: be prepared. You're supposed to have fought your way through to 21st level, so you should already be aware of the sorts of high level attacks you would face. Reduce their impact ahead of time, as much as possible.
I posted this because I felt that while all the various buffing was cumbersome, it was ultimately necessary evil. Epic is just plain brutal, with many design tenets being thrown out of the window. My main concern was that in simplifying the system (heck, I too would love a more streamlined version), you end up making the PCs too weak. For example, I think epic was designed around the assumption that PCs were pretty much immune to everything (or could at least access a countermeasure within a very short period of time). Look at the way racial HD (and consequently, other factors such as saves, save DCs and bab scale out of whack as well). You can't just fix one aspect and leave the other part untouched.
Last edited:
Again, thanks to dicefreaks (if any of you are here) for coming up with it in the first place. Again, I must stress that this is not how you must run your game, but more a guideline to let you know how your PC can be expected to fare in epic.
I posted this because I felt that while all the various buffing was cumbersome, it was ultimately necessary evil. Epic is just plain brutal, with many design tenets being thrown out of the window. My main concern was that in simplifying the system (heck, I too would love a more streamlined version), you end up making the PCs too weak. For example, I think epic was designed around the assumption that PCs were pretty much immune to everything (or could at least access a countermeasure within a very short period of time). Look at the way racial HD (and consequently, other factors such as saves, save DCs and bab scale out of whack as well). You can't just fix one aspect and leave the other part untouched.
This is a fact! Great analysis here by the DiceFreaks, and something very similar to the process mapping I completed on the SRD from the PH side of the equation. It appears they were looking at the MM side of the equation. you're exactly right about streamlining the system. It MUST be streamlined to be playable, but you can't actually take anything OUT without retooling the entire system, which is too much work. Therefore the key is to simplify the methods and means of getting the same benefits/powers/abilities, and ensure that it remains balanced and playable at higher levels.
Kerrick
First Post
Wow. That's a lot of stuff.
I hate say it, but their analysis is based on a faulty assumption - that the CRs are actually accurate, which they're not. I use Upper Krust's CRs, which have been thoroughly playtested and are far more accurate.Here's the expanded version. Again, thanks to dicefreaks (if any of you are here) for coming up with it in the first place. Again, I must stress that this is not how you must run your game, but more a guideline to let you know how your PC can be expected to fare in epic.
That's exactly why epic play doesn't work - they threw most of the design tenets out the window.
What fun is that, if everyone's immune to everything? Doesn't make for much of a challenge, does it?
Of course not. That's why I started from the ground up - I've long held the opinion that most of the problems at epic arise at low levels, so if you fix them at low levels, they won't be as inherent at high levels.
It's only too much work if you're unwilling to do it. Me, I'm bored (and a little bit crazy), so I'm doing the entire system. I've spent nine months on it so far, and I've still got a few more to go, but I don't regret a minute of it. Most of it's online now; click the Project Phoenix link in my sig.
Question for you all: Since I fully intend to merge the epic rules with the core so that the transition's much more seamless, should I merge the epic material in too, or keep it separate? On the one hand, keeping the "epic" stuff separate would be good for groups that don't want to play at that level; on the other, I see little reason NOT to include it, since it's just more powerful magic items, monsters, and feats that use the same rules.
Alzrius
The EN World kitten
Merge the epic material in too, I say. The division between "epic" and "non-epic" is fairly artificial (something 4E has shown), so there's no real reason to segregate them. If people don't want to play at epic levels, they'll just stop before they get there, the same way a lot of groups decide to stop long before they reach 20th level.
Jack99
Adventurer
At times, it can be hard to prep for everything. While I agree with you (in theory), I once had a player whose character, a dual-weilding ranger/scout/dervish had like 5 attacks (or perhaps more, it's been a while). Due to having two different weapons, and getting class bonuses on the scimitar, every attack basically had a different attack and damage bonus. On top of that, he could be hit with spells like polymorph (into troll), bless, haste, bull's strength etc etc. Then there was a bonus if he moved more than X feet and a host of other modifiers that could come into play. Some stack, some don't, and some affect the main hand in a different way than the offhand. He tried (with my help) to make an overview, but it turned out to be several pages long. Needless to say, just about every time it was his turn, it always took a while to figure out his attack and damage, even if somewhat prepped.
May I be directed to where these revised crs may be found?
I agree that the crs may be faulty (for instance, look at the back of fiendish codex, which revised the crs of many existing monsters. The Klurichir got the biggest cut, from cr25 all the way down to cr17!). However, it may not be easy determining which are accurate, moreso what an appropriate cr should be. Being a 3e splatbook, it is highly possible that many underlying assumptions once thought reasonable back then, are no longer valid in 3.5.
One problem I felt is that there is simply too many ways of playing dnd, largely because of the numerous ways of assembling a party. So a cr which may be "balanced" for one party may be too easy or difficult for another.
But if you are running an epic campaign using the ELH monsters as written, than those guidelines would apply. Naturally, if you reworked their stats, then everything changes.
Neither is auto-failing a save. I agree the problem is somewhat in the rules. For instance, the save DC for an extraordinary or SU ability is typically 10+1/2HD+stat mod, but there is no real correlation between HD and cr. And the designers' solution to making sure monsters remain a challenge is simply to pile on more HD (so as to improve their saves, hp and bab). Meaning that DCs tend to scale much faster than saves anyways. In a more extreme case, consider a half-fiend great wyrm red dragon. Blasphemy at caster lv40. You either make yourself immune via silence or greater spell immunity, or die instantly. No other way around it.
Look at the demilich - whose DCs are 10+HD+cha mod, rather than 1/2HD. No PC can expect to make his save against that (at least, not without ToB). The only way to survive such an encounter is to "cheat" and pile on the immunities prior to facing one. Consider it the lesser of 2 evils, if you must.
Drowbane
First Post
I don't use premade character sheets. I make and update each PC on my computer and usually have them advanced for the next 2-5 levels (too much time on my hands? 
). I also will write out a list of buffs with a break down of what that buff gives me (example - Haste: +1 attack on standard, +1 to hit, AC, Ref, +30ft move) on a seperate piece of paper. Combat rounds at that level can be fairly long, I only pay half attention to the action and focus mostly on what my PC will be doing next, and double-checking my current stats. Sure a disjunction can slow things down, but usually I only have to account a handful of magic items... ignoring the buffs is easy since they've never been part of my "constant stats". If that makes any sense
Paragon Human (ELH LA estimated at +11. Back then we called it +15) Monk 25 / 3.0 Psion 20. But it wasn't his race so much as how ridiculously overpowered he was.
* 3.0 psy-feedback allowed one to channel Psi Points to increase a physical stat. The way it was worded, you could continually add points throughout the round. 3.5 nerfed this power to nigh uselessness.
* Mindfeeder: psionic weapon property. On a crit, add dmg you deal to your Psi Points.
*Coup d'Grace: 1/day, declare an attack as an Auto-crit (no roll to hit required?).
*Manifestor: psionic weapon property. Spend 5psi to reuse a 1/day (equipment based only?) ability.
* sometime homebrewed: x3 dmg on a crit
All of the above was on his unarmed dmg. So, first attack I channel ALL (or nearly all) of my Psi Points into my Str Mod. I attack, do ridiculous dmg... apply dmg to my Psi total. next attack, I do ridiculous dmg x3... etc. IIRC, Lo Pan usually had a Str mod in the several hundreds (thus the DMing not objecting when I said I was going to dual-wield the Golems he had initially thrown at us against the Dragons that just showed up).
My memory is pretty foggy, but IIRC, Lo Pan was capable of dishing out a couple million points of dmg by the end of his first attack routine.
). I also will write out a list of buffs with a break down of what that buff gives me (example - Haste: +1 attack on standard, +1 to hit, AC, Ref, +30ft move) on a seperate piece of paper. Combat rounds at that level can be fairly long, I only pay half attention to the action and focus mostly on what my PC will be doing next, and double-checking my current stats. Sure a disjunction can slow things down, but usually I only have to account a handful of magic items... ignoring the buffs is easy since they've never been part of my "constant stats". If that makes any sense This just begs a question: what race was Lo Pan if he could wield an iron golem?!?
Paragon Human (ELH LA estimated at +11. Back then we called it +15) Monk 25 / 3.0 Psion 20. But it wasn't his race so much as how ridiculously overpowered he was.
* 3.0 psy-feedback allowed one to channel Psi Points to increase a physical stat. The way it was worded, you could continually add points throughout the round. 3.5 nerfed this power to nigh uselessness.
* Mindfeeder: psionic weapon property. On a crit, add dmg you deal to your Psi Points.
*Coup d'Grace: 1/day, declare an attack as an Auto-crit (no roll to hit required?).
*Manifestor: psionic weapon property. Spend 5psi to reuse a 1/day (equipment based only?) ability.
* sometime homebrewed: x3 dmg on a crit
All of the above was on his unarmed dmg. So, first attack I channel ALL (or nearly all) of my Psi Points into my Str Mod. I attack, do ridiculous dmg... apply dmg to my Psi total. next attack, I do ridiculous dmg x3... etc. IIRC, Lo Pan usually had a Str mod in the several hundreds (thus the DMing not objecting when I said I was going to dual-wield the Golems he had initially thrown at us against the Dragons that just showed up).
My memory is pretty foggy, but IIRC, Lo Pan was capable of dishing out a couple million points of dmg by the end of his first attack routine.
Last edited:
Kerrick
First Post
Sure! It's a bit out of date (it's 3.5 rules, but written a couple years ago), but it's still good. UK's working on/has an ECL-based system, which I am eagerly looking forward to. Oh, and keep in mind that his conversion from CR --> ECL is something like ECL = CR * 2/3. So the balor, listed at CR 33, is ECL 27.May I be directed to where these revised crs may be found?
Yeah. I wonder why they ever thought balancing a monster's power against an entire party was a good idea.
Yeah, that is a problem.
That, I'm sure, is a typo. The ELH is full of mistakes due to the fact that they rushed it out.Look at the demilich - whose DCs are 10+HD+cha mod, rather than 1/2HD. No PC can expect to make his save against that (at least, not without ToB). The only way to survive such an encounter is to "cheat" and pile on the immunities prior to facing one. Consider it the lesser of 2 evils, if you must.
Similar Threads
