What's wrong with high-level/epic play?

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kerrick mate!

Sure! It's a bit out of date (it's 3.5 rules, but written a couple years ago), but it's still good. UK's working on/has an ECL-based system, which I am eagerly looking forward to. Oh, and keep in mind that his conversion from CR --> ECL is something like ECL = CR * 2/3. So the balor, listed at CR 33, is ECL 27.

There were two major flaws in my earlier CR/EL system:

1) It was that it was designed with the Fighter Class as the default CR measure - which, when an epic Wizard can be about 4-5 levels more powerful it just walks over the monsters even though their CRs are accurate (for Fighters).

2) To my shame I had determined Encounter Level without taking into account that the power of challenges will deteriorate as enemies are removed from the field of play. So multiple weaker opponents should be less powerful than I initially assigned. Instead of CR x2 = +4 EL, CR x1.5 = +4 EL is more accurate.

Both the above problems are easily correctible (and have been sorted for version 6 of the CR/EL document).

However, I would add the caveat that you should bloody well play 4th Edition instead of wasting your time with 3/3.5. Its a much, much better system in every way. Its perfect for really high level gaming (as I'll show soon enough). 3rd Edition seemed like the Holy Grail at the time, but even if we excuse and/or correct all its flaws, it still just delivers far too much information that can be processed in any sane amount of time.

 

[Kerrick]

However, I would add the caveat that you should bloody well play 4th Edition instead of wasting your time with 3/3.5. Its a much, much better system in every way. Its perfect for really high level gaming (as I'll show soon enough). 3rd Edition seemed like the Holy Grail at the time, but even if we excuse and/or correct all its flaws, it still just delivers far too much information that can be processed in any sane amount of time.

In the interests of avoiding an edition war, I'll just say: YMMV.

Oh, almost forgot:

For those of you still playing 3.5... epic progressions: Use them or not? I'm talking about base classes here, not PrCs. I don't build PrCs to scale beyond their maximum level.

 

[Piratecat]

However, I would add the caveat that you should bloody well play 4th Edition instead of wasting your time with 3/3.5. Its a much, much better system in every way.

Bad edition war starter! BAD!

Seriously, I respect that this is your opinion, but stating it as an immutable fact is a bad idea. Please don't do that.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Ahoy there Piratecat!

Bad edition war starter! BAD!

Seriously, I respect that this is your opinion, but stating it as an immutable fact is a bad idea. Please don't do that.

Apologies if necessary.

What I actually meant to say was stop wasting time trying to 'fix' high-level 3/3.5E because 4E has already solved all the problems of high-level gaming.

I wasn't trying to suggest you shouldn't play 3/3.5E in its totality - although yes, in my opinion, 4E is by far the superior system.

 

[JDJblatherings]

Fine. Just put some of the party into the force cage. Preferably the non spellcasting members.

It doesn't stop the basic problem- trump card v trump card combat until someone comes up with a trump the other side can't beat.

The more you point out things like, "But the fighter can get a Cloak of the Montebank!" the more you're just proving my point. Trump v trump v trump v etc.

Spells and magic items have always been trumps if you want to get picky about it.
"Oh no, someone has cast hold portal on yonder door" -> knock.

oh look an evil Mu, silence him ! -> silence spell.

evil MU- Crud i'm silenced, I guess i'll have to use one of my 8 spells with no verbal component.

 

[Cadfan]

Spells and magic items have always been trumps if you want to get picky about it.
"Oh no, someone has cast hold portal on yonder door" -> knock.

oh look an evil Mu, silence him ! -> silence spell.

evil MU- Crud i'm silenced, I guess i'll have to use one of my 8 spells with no verbal component.

Right. And its always kind of sucked. The problem is particularly bad at high levels, because the spells get more brutal.

Fortunately 4e mostly gets around this by having dehabilitating effects come with saving throws every round and short durations, and giving every class various forms of counters.

 

[WizarDru]

For us, it was the sheer scope of options combined with unmanageable math. The paladin charges with her lance... and then she spends five minutes calculating the damage multipliers and how they're affected by smiting, magic items, buffs, and feats. It got to be unwieldy.

THIS.

A thousand times THIS.

A 28th level, with six characters, two pets and two followers, combined with stacking powers from classes, prestige classes, magic items, spell effects and who knows what else, the math became tedious in the extreme. Then factor in conditional bonuses, combat options, feats and terrain effects....GAH.

 

[The Human Target]

My 100% serious recommendation is to stop trying to rework the system, and switch to Mutants and Masterminds, Exalted, or high level 4E play.

I'm not sure trying to fix epic level 3E play is even possible, or worth the effort.

 

[ashockney]

THIS.

A thousand times THIS.

A 28th level, with six characters, two pets and two followers, combined with stacking powers from classes, prestige classes, magic items, spell effects and who knows what else, the math became tedious in the extreme. Then factor in conditional bonuses, combat options, feats and terrain effects....GAH.

Ah, memories! The gang's all here from the old 3rd Edition high level threads! Although PC's here to stop fights not start them this time. ; )

I will second the notion that 4e is at least worth a playthrough to check out the high level stuff and how it's being handled in this game differently. That's what I'm doing.

Going through this thread, however, has been enlightening me to the fact that many of the things I LOVE about 4e could fairly easily be retro-fitted into 3e to make it much faster and more playable. Interesting...

Kerrick, thank you for the invite to check out your web/wiki for Project Phoenix. I spent some time going over it tonight. As you know from my earlier comments, it appears we had very similar goals and that I've already spent some time accomplishing the same goals from a different direction. I'm all about saving time in my work, so if it would save you any time, I'd be happy to offer you more info on the work I've already done. Having spent some time reviewing your work, I'm still unclear as to what's changed exactly, so I'd like your thoughts on the big changes you're recommending at this point.

UpperKrust, howdy mate! It's always good to post-a-logue with you. I am also intrigued at the unique approach you took to accomplish very similar goals (coming from the MM side of the equation). I'd like to see/read more about your goals in doing that work and development, to see if you were headed in the same direction as Kerrick and I.

You know, it occurs to me that we may all three (along with everyone at Paizo for Pathfinder...) be trying to head in the same direction. It may be worth a dialogue to see if we could accomplish more by working together. At a minimum, I would be happy to spend some time discussing the work that's been done today in a faster format. I'd recommend Skype, and it might be fun to record for podcasting purposes.

Dare I say, you may have gotten your chocolate in my peanut butter?


Good gaming!

 

[Kerrick]

What I actually meant to say was stop wasting time trying to 'fix' high-level 3/3.5E because 4E has already solved all the problems of high-level gaming.

I wasn't trying to suggest you shouldn't play 3/3.5E in its totality - although yes, in my opinion, 4E is by far the superior system.

Bah... I can't afford 100+ dollars for the 4E books even if I wanted them, and I have little inclination to learn a new system. I'm sure 4E high-level play is smoother, but like ashockney says, it shouldn't be that hard to port some of the ideas back to 3.x.

My 100% serious recommendation is to stop trying to rework the system, and switch to Mutants and Masterminds, Exalted, or high level 4E play.

I'm not sure trying to fix epic level 3E play is even possible, or worth the effort.

Fixing it on its own, without touching the rest of the system? No. Working from the ground up and restructuring the entire framework of the game? Possibly. It is a lot of work, but I was bored and needed something to keep me busy.

Kerrick, thank you for the invite to check out your web/wiki for Project Phoenix. I spent some time going over it tonight. As you know from my earlier comments, it appears we had very similar goals and that I've already spent some time accomplishing the same goals from a different direction. I'm all about saving time in my work, so if it would save you any time, I'd be happy to offer you more info on the work I've already done. Having spent some time reviewing your work, I'm still unclear as to what's changed exactly, so I'd like your thoughts on the big changes you're recommending at this point.

Sure! Any help you're willing to offer is much appreciated. Drop me a PM with questions, so we don't clutter up this thread with off-topic stuff. Oh, and check out the forum I started for folks doing revisions of 3.5 material: Society of 3.5 Revisionists.

You know, it occurs to me that we may all three (along with everyone at Paizo for Pathfinder...) be trying to head in the same direction. It may be worth a dialogue to see if we could accomplish more by working together.

We are, more or less... we're just taking different paths to the end result. Pathfinder is most interested in staying close to 3.5 so they can keep the largest part of the crowd who plays it; since I'm not interested in publication, it's given me more freedom to make changes as necessary, without being bound as much by backwards compatibility. UK (if I may speak for him) is mostly adding new content, but since the faults in epic have their foundations in the lower levels (IMO), there's only so much he can do to "fix" epic play. Wulf Ratbane is also doing some kind of revision work; he's let slip several hints about a project called Trailblazer, and said it's intended for use with 3.5/Pathfinder, but little beyond that.

At a minimum, I would be happy to spend some time discussing the work that's been done today in a faster format. I'd recommend Skype, and it might be fun to record for podcasting purposes.

I don't have Skype, but I could do IRC.