What's your favorite dice system?

[Argyle King]

Just to make a side comment on this. D&D aims for the rough middle, say 45-65% as common chances of success. When you do to a bell curve, each of those has a lot more than 5% difference between them, sometimes more than double. That means that a +/-1 makes a much larger difference than it would in the flatter d20 distribution. Move from needing an 11+ to a 10+ and that's over a +2 bonus in standard d20 rolling. Which makes pluses a lot more valuable and encourages min-maxing.

Depends

I would posit that D&D's structure (even with "bounded accuracy" and the d20) encourages minmaxing more because "+N" is a primary method of advancement.

In a game where width/breadth of play (and advancement) is encouraged, you certainly can minmax one area (like you've said,) but that comes at the cost of being rather terrible at most other things -and those other things actually matter.

 

[eyeheartawk]

I quite like percentile systems and also Roll & Keep from the old AEG days.

 

[kenada]

I would be curious what you think of the modified PbtA system in Ironsworn. It's 1d6+Mod rolled against two d10s. Failure is when the 1d6+Mod is less than either d10 result. A Weak Hit is when the 1d6+Mod is less than one d10 but higher than one d10. A Strong Hit is when the 1d6+Mod is greater than both d10 results.

Do the d10s do anything? Otherwise, it seems more complicated for a similar effect.

Another, homebrew-specific thing I like about 2d6+modifier is it lets me replace several 2d6-based mechanics with skill checks: reaction becomes Connect (CHA), turn undead becomes Invoke (CHA), and morale and loyalty become modifiers that are added to the roll and evaluated like skill checks.

I also do initiative the same way. Hit points and damage are still whatever dice, but everything else uses one of the two unified (and roll-over) mechanics: d20 for combat/saves and 2d6 for checks. I would add unified dice mechanics as another favorite dice mechanic.

 

[Blue]

Depends

I would posit that D&D's structure (even with "bounded accuracy" and the d20) encourages minmaxing more because "+N" is a primary method of advancement.

In a game where width/breadth of play (and advancement) is encouraged, you certainly can minmax one area (like you've said,) but that comes at the cost of being rather terrible at most other things -and those other things actually matter.

What was being discussed was replacement of the d20 in D&D with 4d6-4. So it's the same structure and context in both situations.

 

[aramis erak]

Do the d10s do anything? Otherwise, it seems more complicated for a similar effect.

No solid clue to whom you're asking...
but, based upon the post above...
in the AEG d10 Roll & Keep system (L5R 1e-4e, LBS) the 10's are convienient to the task difficulties; there are mods from +1 to +10, mostly +2 and +5, with base diffs in multiples of 5 most of the time. The 10d10 limit also is conveniently square...
It feels right in play for most. That skilled attempts also open end a given die on 10's is an important.

Not to say one couldn't do d6 R&K; in fact, EABA does, but it's 3 or 4 dice - not att based, but whether or not one is gifted in the attribute.

I also do initiative the same way. Hit points and damage are still whatever dice, but everything else uses one of the two unified (and roll-over) mechanics: d20 for combat/saves and 2d6 for checks. I would add unified dice mechanics as another favorite dice mechanic.

And yet, just advocated for non-unified ones... you've two discrete mechanics.

 

[kenada]

No solid clue to whom you're asking...

I was responding to someone who had asked what I thought of Ironsworn’s dice mechanics, which compares a d6+modifier versus two d10s to determine degrees of success. The resulting distribution is similar to PbtA-style 2d6, so my response was to inquire whether the d10s had any other function in the system. Otherwise, it seems more complicated than just rolling 2d6 versus a fixed range of results.

And yet, just advocated for non-unified ones... you've two discrete mechanics.

Yep. Constraints sometimes necessitate making trade-offs. In this case, I wanted to preserve the feel of D&D-style combat, which meant using d20-based attack rolls and saving throws when the rest of the system was going to be using 2d6 versus a fixed range (like PbtA, 6−/7–9/10+). I also wanted to be able to use OSR content without requiring a lot of conversion work, which this approach does*.

One might ask, why not use a unified d20 mechanic? Trying to emulate the non-uniform distribution of 2d6 would be messy. I also don’t like the way 3e unified things, so that approach isn’t an option either. In this case, it ends up being easier and less confusing to use two separate mechanics for what I am trying to do with my homebrew system. At least they both work the same basic way (roll high = good).

---

* Almost all 2d6 rolls are made by the players, including skill checks and initiative, which obviates the need to devise modifiers for NPCs and monsters. There is some conversion work required, but I most can be done by looking up the replacement saving throw table and converting their morale to a modifier (by subtracting seven). The only exception currently is changing level drain effects, which I have a different approach for handling.

 

[Haiku Elvis]

I have been brainstorming of ways of play 5e narratively too, can I be even more heretical?
Should I see myself out or will torches and pitchforks be incoming?

If you can turn 5e into a workable narrative diceless game you probably deserve a statue. Of course we'll still send the mob, pioneers are never appreciated in their own time.

 

[aramis erak]

I was responding to someone who had asked what I thought of Ironsworn’s dice mechanics, which compares a d6+modifier versus two d10s to determine degrees of success. The resulting distribution is similar to PbtA-style 2d6, so my response was to inquire whether the d10s had any other function in the system. Otherwise, it seems more complicated than just rolling 2d6 versus a fixed range of results.

It weights the mods quite differently. A +5 on the d6+M vs d10 & d10 has a chance of no hits (roll ⚀+5=5; 10s can still cause fail/weak/strong hit results), while the 2d6+5 vs 6-/7-10/11+ is a guaranteed weak or strong hit.
the 2d10 makes modifiers up to +9 viable for all three results, while +4 is the maximum capable of all three results on PBTA standard.

(I'd pondered the why myself.)

Cranking the examples:
M modifier [miss, weak, strong]
M= 0 [355, 190, 55][59.166%, 31.666%, 9.166%]
M= 1 [271, 238, 91][45.166%, 39.666%, 15.166%]
M= 2 [199, 262, 139][33.166%, 43.666%, 23.166%]
M= 3 [139, 262, 199][23.166%, 43.6665, 33.166%]
M= 4 [91, 238, 271][15.166%, 39.666%, 45.166%]
M= 5 [56, 208, 336][9.333%, 34.666%, 56.0%]
M= 6 [32, 176, 392][5.333%, 29.333%, 65.333%]
M= 7 [17, 146, 437][2.833%, 24.333%, 72.833%]
M= 8 [9, 122, 469][1.5%, 20.333%, 78.166%]
M= 9 [6, 108, 486][1.0%, 18.0%, 81.0%]

Note also: I've ignored the 10% chance of a twist; a twist will always be a failure or a strong hit, since it requires the d10's to match.

Now, similar for PBTA 2d6+M vs 7+/10+, of 36
M= 0 [15, 15, 6][41.666%, 41.666%, 16.666%]
M= 1 [10, 16, 10][27.777%, 44.444%, 27.777%]
M= 2 [6, 15, 15][16.666%, 41.666%, 41.666%]
M= 3 [3, 12, 21][8.333%, 33.333%, 58.333%]
M= 4 [1, 9, 26][2.777%, 25%, 72.222%]
M= 5 [0, 6, 30][0.0%, 16.666%, 83.333%]
M= 6 [0, 3, 33][0.0%, 8.333%, 91.666%]
M= 7 [0, 1, 35][0.0%, 2.777%, 97.222%]
M= 8 [0, 0, 36][0.0%, 0.0%, 100%]
M= 9 [0, 0, 36][0.0%, 0.0%, 100%]

(All stats by running the total permutations in python.)

 

[Aldarc]

Do the d10s do anything? Otherwise, it seems more complicated for a similar effect.

Another, homebrew-specific thing I like about 2d6+modifier is it lets me replace several 2d6-based mechanics with skill checks: reaction becomes Connect (CHA), turn undead becomes Invoke (CHA), and morale and loyalty become modifiers that are added to the roll and evaluated like skill checks.

I also do initiative the same way. Hit points and damage are still whatever dice, but everything else uses one of the two unified (and roll-over) mechanics: d20 for combat/saves and 2d6 for checks. I would add unified dice mechanics as another favorite dice mechanic.

@innerdude has far more play experience with Ironsworn and likely would be able to articulate that better than I could.

But I would also recommend checking out this Twitter thread where Ironsworn creator Shawn Tompkins talks about their reasoning that they opted for this dice resolution system and not the typical 2d6+mod from PbtA.

 

[steenan]

Cortex Prime:
Take a die for each applicable trait (traits are expressed as dice sizes), roll the whole pool and sum two highest results.