D&D General When Did Counterspell First Appear?

[Gadget]

The problem with most of them is they were too situational: either you needed just the right spell, or to ready an action (or the equivalent) in order to do it, which made countering very rarely used.

What people want, I think, is Harry Potter-style spell duels where I can shoot my magic at your magic and they cancel. Complex rules for making it happen get in the way of this. But it can't be so easy to do that too many spells get countered (because having your own spell get countered isn't very fun). It's a tough balance, and aside from some tweaking I think making counterspell a spell is a good answer.

(Tweaks I would do: it's always a check, but the slot level used to cast adds to the check.)

And I think this worked perfectly fine for D&D. If you want a Harry Potter style spell duel, you probably need a Harry Potter style magic system; preferably one where you don't have muggles (except as background characters) and everyone is letting loose with their wands without worrying about spell slots. The current system makes it either too much of a no brainer, or too easy to meta-game (DM: "ah ha! he was only casting Prestidigitation!"). There are dangers to both making it simple (the current system with counterspell), and adding mechanical heft to the process. In the past, the game had developed subsystems that attempted something along those lines (i.e. psionic combat), but that tended to create a game-within-a-game that happens while the muggles stand around and watch. Different groups would have different needs and preferences, so any one could work for a particular group.

 

[Stalker0]

And I think this worked perfectly fine for D&D. If you want a Harry Potter style spell duel, you probably need a Harry Potter style magic system; preferably one where you don't have muggles (except as background characters) and everyone is letting loose with their wands without worrying about spell slots. The current system makes it either too much of a no brainer, or too easy to meta-game (DM: "ah ha! he was only casting Prestidigitation!"). There are dangers to both making it simple (the current system with counterspell), and adding mechanical heft to the process: In the past, the game had developed subsystems that attempted something along those lines (i.e. psionic combat), but that tended to create a game-within-a game that happens while the muggles stand around and watch. Different groups would have different needs and preferences, so any one could work for a particular group.

It really comes down to the flavor you assign to the mechanics.

Dnd has the concept of a saving throw, which can be flavored in innumerable ways. Most people treat it as "I just dodged or toughed out the spell", but in reality you could just as easily say "my wizard counterspelled the enemy spell".

Take the Voldemort vs Dumbledoor duel, mechanically you could just say this is two high level wizards that are constantly making their saving throws against each others spells....but the half damage from some of them is starting to wear them down, hence why there is fatigue and strain as the duel continues.


That said, Harry Potter doesn't translate that well into standard dnd, as Harry Potter is a very very high level world. Magic is practically infinite, power word kill and dominate person is something anyone can learn, teleport circles exist in everyone's kitchen (flue), etc etc. Wizards in harry potter would curb stomp most fantasy worlds if it came to blows. So ideally a more tailored system would be the best way to showcase that.

 

[steeldragons]

It was 3e, wasn't it? Or 3.5?

 

[Lanefan]

I think you mixed up the editions.

1e and 2e spells were automatically disrupted if you were hit while casting.

3e introduced a concentration check to avoid disruption.

And also introduced "combat casting" as a feat, making that concentration check considerably easier for those who took it.

 

[Lanefan]

I don't mind Counterspell as a near-zero-cast-time spell in itself, but with that said:

--- all spells should have casting times a la 1e-2e, even if that time is near zero in a few cases, and be interruptable during that time
--- Counterspell should never be able to counter another Counterspell*. This isn't M:tG with its silly last-in first-out stack, it's D&D where things (should!) progress in linear time, meaning that by the time you finish casting your Counterspell mine has already gone off. Intended end result: no counter-counter wars like you see in M:tG.
--- casting Counterspell uses a spell slot (2nd level in my game) just like any other spell, meaning you only get so many in a day; but if your timing is right it's guaranteed to work. Note that in my game you can only cast spells of a level by using a slot of that level, meaning if you're out of 2nd level slots you can't cast any more 2nd level spells for the day, period.

* - or any other zero-cast-time spell, of which Featherfall, Command, and a few Power-Word spells are the only ones I can think of quickly.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Although we have Counter Spell and Dispel Magic in this edition, I still like (and allow) stuff in a similar vein ala Shield vs Magic Missile. So is somebody casted Slow on the somebody in the party, I would totally allow somebody to counter that by casting the spell Haste on the same one that just got hit by Slow. Likewise if an enemy decided to use Haste on themselves, then a Wizard in the party could cast Slow to negate it as well.

It seems like this has always been the general intent in every edition. It is particularly straightforward when dealing with ongoing personal effects like haste or slow, or something like Protection from Evil. One of the issues in AD&D days was most enemies are monsters, and they work by somewhat different rules, making it harder to know what can and cannot be countered. 3e has elaborate rules around that point. 4e simply reduced everything to an effect with a duration, or else a condition, which was pretty simple.

5e's solution mainly works because of the nature of 5e casting. You can memorize something like Counterspell, and then if you don't use it, you are not out much, except some opportunity cost. In 4e, 3e, or 'classic' D&D you've tied up a 'slot' that won't be usable for anything else, so it is ALMOST always sub-optimal to pick a spell or other ability that does nothing but counter other things. Old School Dispel Magic at least had many potential uses besides as direct counter magic. Counterspell per se would not work in something like 2e.

 

[Staffan]

Counterspelling is something that's really hard to balance in D&D. The 5e version is probably too powerful, allowing a caster to shut down another caster without that big an opportunity cost (other than spell slots). The 3e version, on the other hand, is probably too weak, because the prospective counterspeller doesn't get to do anything on their own turn – that's too big of an opportunity cost.

In Magic, counterspells have the limitation (just like everything else) that they cost mana to cast – I believe the current generic version, Cancel, costs two blue mana and one generic mana (there are cheaper ones, but they generally come with strings attached, like only working on cheap spells, only certain types of spells, or giving the opponent an out of some sort like paying more mana). That's three mana you need to keep open for countering instead of using it on something proactive on your own turn.

The closest equivalent to something like that in D&D would be to say that you can't cast an Nth level counterspell if you cast a spell on your last turn with a level equal to or higher than your top spell level (with cantrips counting as 0). So at 7th level when you first get counterspell, keeping it ready means you only get to cast cantrips. At 9th level you can cast a 1st level spell on your turn and still be ready to counterspell as a 4th level spell, but not as a 5th. And so on. That would be a pretty harsh nerf, so perhaps it would be appropriate to balance it out by not making counterspell level-dependent, so it only comes in its level 4 version and using that would counter any spell.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Counterspelling is something that's really hard to balance in D&D. The 5e version is probably too powerful, allowing a caster to shut down another caster without that big an opportunity cost (other than spell slots). The 3e version, on the other hand, is probably too weak, because the prospective counterspeller doesn't get to do anything on their own turn – that's too big of an opportunity cost.

In Magic, counterspells have the limitation (just like everything else) that they cost mana to cast – I believe the current generic version, Cancel, costs two blue mana and one generic mana (there are cheaper ones, but they generally come with strings attached, like only working on cheap spells, only certain types of spells, or giving the opponent an out of some sort like paying more mana). That's three mana you need to keep open for countering instead of using it on something proactive on your own turn.

The closest equivalent to something like that in D&D would be to say that you can't cast an Nth level counterspell if you cast a spell on your last turn with a level equal to or higher than your top spell level (with cantrips counting as 0). So at 7th level when you first get counterspell, keeping it ready means you only get to cast cantrips. At 9th level you can cast a 1st level spell on your turn and still be ready to counterspell as a 4th level spell, but not as a 5th. And so on. That would be a pretty harsh nerf, so perhaps it would be appropriate to balance it out by not making counterspell level-dependent, so it only comes in its level 4 version and using that would counter any spell.

The thing with M:tG counterspells is that they don't impact your action economy that much. Yes, they can force you to reserve mana, but a blue deck player with 3 mana reserved is also a deterrent! Plus if you arrange things correctly, that reservation may A) not really be much of a limit, and B) can possibly be dumped into some other use before your untap phase. Clearly these are goals for deck design. 5e players lack this sort of flexibility WRT how their characters work, in general.

Honestly, I don't think counterspell is all THAT compelling in 5e. It could be quite effective in some restricted situations, but equally it would be nice to have some other spell of the same level memorized in a lot of others. When you actually use it, you're burning up a slot of a level that is pretty often really useful. I mean, you can polymorph!!!! Wall spells kick butt, etc. It is definitely a spell to think of taking, and quite possibly really good if you have some specific opponent in mind that it can help nerf. Otherwise, eh...

 

[Staffan]

The thing with M:tG counterspells is that they don't impact your action economy that much. Yes, they can force you to reserve mana, but a blue deck player with 3 mana reserved is also a deterrent! Plus if you arrange things correctly, that reservation may A) not really be much of a limit, and B) can possibly be dumped into some other use before your untap phase. Clearly these are goals for deck design. 5e players lack this sort of flexibility WRT how their characters work, in general.

Yeah, I just didn't want to get too many levels deep on how Magic worked. Suffice to say that MtG counterspells have an opportunity cost, but it's one you can play around although doing so has other costs (e.g. if the opponent ends their turn without casting anything you want to counter, you can cast an instant spell that draws cards instead at the end of their turn, but that spell probably has less bang for its buck than a sorcery spell you'd cast on your own turn).

Honestly, I don't think counterspell is all THAT compelling in 5e. It could be quite effective in some restricted situations, but equally it would be nice to have some other spell of the same level memorized in a lot of others. When you actually use it, you're burning up a slot of a level that is pretty often really useful. I mean, you can polymorph!!!! Wall spells kick butt, etc. It is definitely a spell to think of taking, and quite possibly really good if you have some specific opponent in mind that it can help nerf. Otherwise, eh...

The thing is that having counterspell prepared is a pretty small opportunity cost (one out of probably 11+ spells). If you do run into an opposing caster, preventing them from fireballing your party is probably one of the best things you can use a 4th level slot for. And if you don't, those slots are open for other things.

I think counterspell would be a more interesting choice in a more traditionally Vancian magic system where you needed to prepare the exact spells you want to cast ahead of time. That makes it a much harder choice, and you probably won't be able to do it round after round. Mind you, I still think 5e's neo-Vancian casting is better in general, but counterspell in specific would have been a more interesting choice in previous editions. That would also mimic the Magic experience better, where you might use one spell to "bait" a counterspell, so you can cast the spell you really want to cast after that one.

It should also be noted that in Magic, counterspells are one of the purest Blue magics there is. There are many things in Magic where different colors can do the same thing using different methods, or with different restrictions, but there are very few non-blue counterspells in Magic, and those that exist tend to have a lot of caveats (e.g. counter a spell that targets one of your creatures, or counter a spell unless its caster takes some amount of damage). Most "hard" counterspells (without conditions) even cost two blue mana, meaning a deck using a lot of them is pretty strongly into the Blue side of things, and that in turn means they aren't using all that much Red, Green, White, or Black magic which is stronger in other areas. In other words, if you want to be certain you can cast Cancel on the third turn, you probably aren't casting a non-Blue spell on your first or possibly even your second turn.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, I just didn't want to get too many levels deep on how Magic worked. Suffice to say that MtG counterspells have an opportunity cost, but it's one you can play around although doing so has other costs (e.g. if the opponent ends their turn without casting anything you want to counter, you can cast an instant spell that draws cards instead at the end of their turn, but that spell probably has less bang for its buck than a sorcery spell you'd cast on your own turn).

The thing is that having counterspell prepared is a pretty small opportunity cost (one out of probably 11+ spells). If you do run into an opposing caster, preventing them from fireballing your party is probably one of the best things you can use a 4th level slot for. And if you don't, those slots are open for other things.

I think counterspell would be a more interesting choice in a more traditionally Vancian magic system where you needed to prepare the exact spells you want to cast ahead of time. That makes it a much harder choice, and you probably won't be able to do it round after round. Mind you, I still think 5e's neo-Vancian casting is better in general, but counterspell in specific would have been a more interesting choice in previous editions. That would also mimic the Magic experience better, where you might use one spell to "bait" a counterspell, so you can cast the spell you really want to cast after that one.

It should also be noted that in Magic, counterspells are one of the purest Blue magics there is. There are many things in Magic where different colors can do the same thing using different methods, or with different restrictions, but there are very few non-blue counterspells in Magic, and those that exist tend to have a lot of caveats (e.g. counter a spell that targets one of your creatures, or counter a spell unless its caster takes some amount of damage). Most "hard" counterspells (without conditions) even cost two blue mana, meaning a deck using a lot of them is pretty strongly into the Blue side of things, and that in turn means they aren't using all that much Red, Green, White, or Black magic which is stronger in other areas. In other words, if you want to be certain you can cast Cancel on the third turn, you probably aren't casting a non-Blue spell on your first or possibly even your second turn.

My PHB calls Counterspell a level 3 wizard spell, and I see that there are a maximum of 3 3rd level spell slots available to a wizard. So, one of his three spells he can memorize at level 3 could be Counterspell, but there are a LOT of other good level 3 spells out there! Now, a few may be rituals, there's scrolls, there's other ways to sneak in an additional slot here and there I'm sure. Still, its not 1 of 11, its one of 3. 3rd level is also a pretty nice level, its loaded with goodies, so particularly tricky choice there.

Counterspell would have been virtually worthless in 1e. It would take up a slot in your traveling book, as well as a memorization spot. It would require your action to use (almost surely based on things like Rod of Absorption) and have been subject to all the other restrictions of spell casting, and the vagueries of the initiative/segment system which could easily make casting it entirely moot! No doubt all this could have been mitigated with some special rule, but in general there's no chance anyone would ever really take it over Dispel Magic in AD&D, so it was never seriously proposed (there were people to tried creating it, but it never got any traction).

Its a viable tactic in 5e, but not overpowered, IMHO. The best possible result is you brick a 3rd level slot and get to cancel out some nasty spell attack by an opposition spell caster. Nice, but you could win other ways.