D&D General When Did Counterspell First Appear?

[HammerMan]

I don't mind Counterspell as a near-zero-cast-time spell in itself, but with that said:

--- all spells should have casting times a la 1e-2e, even if that time is near zero in a few cases, and be interruptable during that time
--- Counterspell should never be able to counter another Counterspell*. This isn't M:tG with its silly last-in first-out stack, it's D&D where things (should!) progress in linear time, meaning that by the time you finish casting your Counterspell mine has already gone off. Intended end result: no counter-counter wars like you see in M:tG.
--- casting Counterspell uses a spell slot (2nd level in my game) just like any other spell, meaning you only get so many in a day; but if your timing is right it's guaranteed to work. Note that in my game you can only cast spells of a level by using a slot of that level, meaning if you're out of 2nd level slots you can't cast any more 2nd level spells for the day, period.

* - or any other zero-cast-time spell, of which Featherfall, Command, and a few Power-Word spells are the only ones I can think of quickly.

i remember in 2e there being amounts of time (I want to say counts on initiative) to cast so you start on a 7 but end on a 4 and in-between it can be stopped... am I remembering that right...maybe it was even a house rule.
(we actually house ruled initiative to be d20 highest go first in like '96 we just switch dex mod from a negative to a positive)

 

[Gadget]

My PHB calls Counterspell a level 3 wizard spell, and I see that there are a maximum of 3 3rd level spell slots available to a wizard. So, one of his three spells he can memorize at level 3 could be Counterspell, but there are a LOT of other good level 3 spells out there! Now, a few may be rituals, there's scrolls, there's other ways to sneak in an additional slot here and there I'm sure. Still, its not 1 of 11, its one of 3. 3rd level is also a pretty nice level, its loaded with goodies, so particularly tricky choice there.

Counterspell would have been virtually worthless in 1e. It would take up a slot in your traveling book, as well as a memorization spot. It would require your action to use (almost surely based on things like Rod of Absorption) and have been subject to all the other restrictions of spell casting, and the vagueries of the initiative/segment system which could easily make casting it entirely moot! No doubt all this could have been mitigated with some special rule, but in general there's no chance anyone would ever really take it over Dispel Magic in AD&D, so it was never seriously proposed (there were people to tried creating it, but it never got any traction).

Its a viable tactic in 5e, but not overpowered, IMHO. The best possible result is you brick a 3rd level slot and get to cancel out some nasty spell attack by an opposition spell caster. Nice, but you could win other ways.

I may be mistaken, but you seem to be confusing spell slots with number of spells prepared. In 5e, you no longer prepare (D&D has not 'memorized' since 2e) spells into a specific slot, so the opportunity cost of preparing Counterspell is that you cannot prepare another spell to have on tap, of any level you can cast. A Wizard is not limited to preparing only 3 third level spells, he could prepare all third level spells if he so desired; it would be foolish, but he could do so, RAW. You can still use all of your 3rd level spell slots for fireball, if you so desire, even if you have prepared Counterspell. And of course, you can use 4th+ slot to cast Counterspell if all your 3rd level slots have been used, that's a fair amount of flexibility.

 

[toucanbuzz]

i remember in 2e there being amounts of time (I want to say counts on initiative) to cast so you start on a 7 but end on a 4 and in-between it can be stopped... am I remembering that right...maybe it was even a house rule.

Those were the 2E rules, roughly. Roll a d10 for players, add your modifier for your declared action (e.g. +3 for fireball). Lowest goes first. So, if players roll 4, I add +3 for my fireball. If I'm hit before initiative tic 4, nothing happens. If I'm hit at 4 through 6, I lose the spell. If we tie on 7, I think simultaneous was the rule.

It would've been a house rule to count down, or to use a d20, or to use ability score modifiers.

 

[billd91]

I've been on both the giving side (as a player) and receiving side (as DM, and from my own child, no less) of frustrating counterspells - and, frankly, I'm still OK with it. Yes, it can really shut down an enemy spellcaster, something that can be a cheap cost with a lot of actions on the party's side. But I still feel the spell slots are a significant cost.

If there were anything I would do to curtail them from what they do now - I'd probably remove the ability to counter a higher level spell by die roll or make the die roll a saving throw made by the initial caster based on their casting stat vs the counterspeller's spell DC.

 

[Lanefan]

i remember in 2e there being amounts of time (I want to say counts on initiative) to cast so you start on a 7 but end on a 4 and in-between it can be stopped... am I remembering that right...maybe it was even a house rule.
(we actually house ruled initiative to be d20 highest go first in like '96 we just switch dex mod from a negative to a positive)

Spells in 1e-2e all had casting times (done confusingly, of course) but you've got the general idea right.

 

[Garthanos]

Earlier, much earlier! Back to 1971...

Chainmail (1971): When an enemy wizard casts a spell, roll a target number on 2d6 to counter it. It was an innate feature of a wizard, though, not an actual spell. Before D&D, Gygax co-authored Chainmail, the precursor to D&D that started as mass warfare rules and moved into fantasy individual gaming with elves and dwarves. This is the first place I could find the idea of counterspell in D&D origins.

That was were I remembered it first. Of course the wizard also just knew one missile magic aka Fireball or Lightning those were not on your spell list either (sort of the first at-will magic)

 

[R_J_K75]

I believe that the 2e Spell and Magic book also had rules for counter spelling, but I can't verify as all of my books are boxed atm (moving later in the week).

I looked in the Spells & Magic and didnt see anything for counter spell. The rules for magical dueling were actually in the 2E book Dungeon Master's Option - High-Level Campaign, which does have counter spell.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I looked in the Spells & Magic and didnt see anything for counter spell. The rules for magical dueling were actually in the 2E book Dungeon Master's Option - High-Level Campaign, which does have counter spell.

Thanks, I must have mixed up the books. I thought the spell dueling rules were in Spells and Magic.

 

[R_J_K75]

Thanks, I must have mixed up the books. I thought the spell dueling rules were in Spells and Magic.

I did the exact same thing and looked in Spells & Magic first. The rules in High Level campaign are pretty detailed and seems like you could easily adopt it for 5E from what I glanced. Although it's been years since I read it so cant say for sure.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I may be mistaken, but you seem to be confusing spell slots with number of spells prepared. In 5e, you no longer prepare (D&D has not 'memorized' since 2e) spells into a specific slot, so the opportunity cost of preparing Counterspell is that you cannot prepare another spell to have on tap, of any level you can cast. A Wizard is not limited to preparing only 3 third level spells, he could prepare all third level spells if he so desired; it would be foolish, but he could do so, RAW. You can still use all of your 3rd level spell slots for fireball, if you so desire, even if you have prepared Counterspell. And of course, you can use 4th+ slot to cast Counterspell if all your 3rd level slots have been used, that's a fair amount of flexibility.

Yeah, I have run 5e wizards. I understand it. You are occupying a preparation 'slot', and if you cast the spell you are using up AT LEAST a level 3 slot to cast it. Believe me, the number of spells you can prep DOES get to be a problem pretty fast. Its quite adequate at low levels, but even an 18 starting INT wizard preps 5 spells at level 1, and at level 5, where he gets 3rd level slots he's able to prep 9 spells and has 9 slots! At 11th level, where you have 16 total slots you are memorizing at most 16 spells (with 2 ASIs). Granted, you could in theory (and actually often in practice) pick a lot of high level ones for those 16, but realistically you're likely to have more 3rd level spells in your book than you can afford to pick. That is my experience anyway.

So, there IS an opportunity cost to prepare Counterspell, and then obviously casting it has a resource cost, though I suspect if it is used wisely it could be worth it. You will be sorely tempted to leave it out of your prepped spell list, and for potentially good reason. Level 3 is fairly rich in good flexible spells, and it is the last level where you really get an adequate number of slots. If its a choice of Haste, Lightning Bolt, Stinking Cloud, Fly, Gaseous Form, etc. or Counterspell, well they are all rather tempting, and you're getting 3-5 choices, at most.

Beyond that, at least in the games I played in, FINDING spells was kind of problematic, so most of what I got was either my own research, or the freebies. So that's another opportunity cost. Not saying I wouldn't choose Counterspell, perhaps. It would kind of depend on the stuff I was thinking I might face. If it looked like it was a lot of evil wizards, well then it sounds better. If its a bunch of monsters, most of them don't cast spells.

So, I think the thing is pretty balanced. In the right situation you will love Fireballs, or Fly, or whatever, or maybe Counterspell. I don't remember ever taking it, personally, but I MIGHT someday.