When does a warlock gain higher Invocations

[Omegaxicor]

I have looked everywhere and all I can find are copies of the words in the Complete Arcane book. I don't understand the magic of the Warlock class

At every even level (and level 1) you gain an invocation and at 6th, 11th and 16th you can trade an invocation for another one of equal or lower level (I think that sucks, you should be able to trade one for any other level you cast, least for greater at 11th for example)

My main question is when can you first learn a Lesser invocation, and when can you first learn a Dark one, it doesn't say when you gain new levels of invocations

 

[RogueInRouge]

This thread from GITP might be helpful:

Warlock/Hellfire Warlock Question [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

My own 2cp is that the text is incredibly ambiguous, so the whole thing becomes a judgment call in trying to determine the INTENT as opposed to what was written. Here's my take, fwiw:

• Warlocks become eligible to learn higher grades of invocation at levels 6 (qualifying for LESSER), 11 (greater), and 16 (dark)
• Warlocks learn additional invocations as indicated in the "Invocations Known" column of Table 1-1 on p. 8.

For example, a level 4 pure warlock knows 3 different LEAST invocations. A level 8 warlock knows 5 invocations, and as many as 2 of them may be LESSER. At least 3 of them are LEAST invocations.

What's still not quite clear to me is how the errata, which redefines Eldritch Blast from a spell-like ability to an invocation, is supposed to affect the total number of invocations known. That is, does a first level Warlock know both Eldritch Blast and some other LEAST invocation of his choosing? Or does Eldritch Blast now count as his 1 known invocation at first level? I'd probably go with the former but can see why other DM's might rule it differently based on the language in the errata.

 

[Omegaxicor]

I haven't read the errata so I cannot comment on it, but I think it would be the latter or else why change it to an invocation (they get so few anyway I would keep it the former)

I can see the logic of 6=Lesser, 11=Greater, 16=Dark I will use that in my games unless a clearer source can be found

 

[RogueInRouge]

The Errata for Complete Arcane is pretty short:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/CompArcaneErrata03162005.zip

And upon actually re-reading it, it's not so much that it changes FROM a spell-like ability to an invocation as it is re-written to be a spell-like ability that is ALSO an invocation.

More experienced folks than I will have to comment on why WotC made the change; the biggest thing that leaps out to me is the big change in effective spell level for purposes of SR and meta-magic feats. I'd guess that once you decide that Eldritch Blast is equivalent to a first level spell instead of half Warlock level rounded down, you might as well treat it as a LEAST invocation for consistency.

If the intent was to make it the only invocation that first level warlocks could know, I'd expect the errata to have updated the starting package on p 10 as well... and it doesn't.

 

[Empirate]

Eldritch Blast is an invocation not for purposes of invocations known, but for how it works. For example, unlike other spell-like abilities, invocations have simple somatic components and cannot be performed unless you're wearing light or no armor.
Every Warlock knows Eldritch Blast. Every 1st level Warlock also knows one more invocation, which may be chosen from the least invocations list. From 6th, 11th, and 16th level onward, when you gain a new invocation known, you may choose a lesser or lower, greater or lower, and dark or lower invocation, respectively. At each of those levels, you may also exchange one invocation you know for a different least, lesser or lower, and greater or lower invocation, again respectively.
I don't understand the problem?

BTW, Eldritch Blast is not a least invocation. It's an invocation apart, it's known to all Warlocks and doesn't fall under the least, lesser, greater, dark distinction.

 

[Trance-Zg]

Ok, please read the table more carefully. It's all there

Complete arcane, pg. 8. Table 1-1 the warlock

in the column "special" there is the description in the brackets by the invocation titled.

new invocation(least or lesser) means; now lesser invocations are available.

new invocation(least, lesser or greater means; now greater invocations are available.

 

[Omegaxicor]

Every Warlock knows Eldritch Blast. Every 1st level Warlock also knows one more invocation, which may be chosen from the least invocations list. From 6th, 11th, and 16th level onward, when you gain a new invocation known, you may choose a lesser or lower, greater or lower, and dark or lower invocation, respectively. At each of those levels, you may also exchange one invocation you know for a different least, lesser or lower, and greater or lower invocation, again respectively.
I don't understand the problem?.

You don't understand the problem because you have misread what is actually written NOWHERE does it say that you get the new invocations at those levels what it says is that you can change one you know for one equal to or lower than it.

Ok, please read the table more carefully. It's all there

Complete arcane, pg. 8. Table 1-1 the warlock

in the column "special" there is the description in the brackets by the invocation titled.

new invocation(least or lesser) means; now lesser invocations are available.

new invocation(least, lesser or greater means; now greater invocations are available.

Please, please, please read the actual article. those lines are for when you can trade one of those invocations for one equal to or less than, it says nothing about you learning the invocations at those levels

both of you have assumed what most DMs assume, I would like to know for certain and as RogueInRouge said it is never made clear

 

[Omegaxicor]

RogueInRouge thanks for the errata and as you say it says nothing about the issue, but it does clear up some other issues

 

[RogueInRouge]

BTW, Eldritch Blast is not a least invocation. It's an invocation apart, it's known to all Warlocks and doesn't fall under the least, lesser, greater, dark distinction.

I don't want to hijack the thread, but thought this was interesting. Is this a house rule, or is there a WotC source along these lines? CA p8 says every invocation has a grade, and p7 lists the four grades (least, lesser, greater, dark.) I couldn't find anything in the RC about invocations, and the errata doesn't say anything about gradeless invocations either.

 

[Omegaxicor]

Yea but it doesn't give Eldritch Blast a grade either, so like everything about the Warlock we are left to guess, most DMs would read that and assume

1) it is a least invocation
2) it is a unique invocation
3) it rises as the warlock does and as it's damage does

I would assume the the second but it isn't clear