When Paladins Screw Up -- Alternatives to disempowering

[Derren]

Imo telling a player how he has to build his character is way out of what a DM is allowed to.
No DM should tell a player where he has to spend skillpoints on or what ability he has to increase.

 

[Cador]

Why do you even bother having players? You can't dictate how they level, only when.

Sorry, but since you don't know the player or the character or the situation, I really don't feel your criticism is relevant. Suffice to say that is a newbie player, who lacks some basic knowledge about game mechanics and paladin code (which was what got his paladin into trouble). Also, the player has only read the PHB (partly) and thus has no idea about prestige classes. Now that I make the paladin's church require that he study religion and improve his wisdom, I am actually working him towards a couple of prestige classes, so that I can later introduce the concept of prestige classes to the player.

So I think I have found a workable solution to not only avoid a player's character losing his paladin status, but also enabling him to qualify for a couple of prestige classes later on. If that takes away some of the player's freedom when levelling up, then I have absolutely no problem with that whatsoever.

 

[Derren]

I still think you are wrong in dictating how a player builds his character. You can make suggestions, but the player has the final choice.

Especially when you are new, you need to make your own descisions, otherwise you'll learn much slower then normal how the game works.

 

[Cador]

I still think you are wrong in dictating how a player builds his character. You can make suggestions, but the player has the final choice.

He still has. His character can do what his faith demands, or he can stop being a paladin and then build and play his character just as he likes.

 

[CyberSpyder]

He still has. His character can do what his faith demands, or he can stop being a paladin and then build and play his character just as he likes.

So his faith demands he spend his stat increase on wisdom?

The skill thing is justifiable - one could conceive, though it seems a trifle odd, of a Paladin being required to read a host of sacred texts and be tested on them. But "You Must Be This Wise to Fight Evil" just seems silly.

 

[Derren]

Also you said that you want the Wis increase (and possibly also the skills) so that the paladin later can take a PRC you have chosen.
Does the player know about that? It doesn't seems so from your post. What if the player doesn't want this PRC? Ever thought about that?

I say it again, don't build the character for a player even if he is new. You can suggest something to him but don't make decisions how for him. Inform the player of all possibilities and let him decide for himself. That way he will develop his own style far more quickly than otherwise.

 

[Amal Shukup]

Players and DMs should collaborate on the evolution of a Character within a campaign. Each party in this collaboration has an absolute veto. "This is how my world works. Like it or lump it" vs "I'm not going to play that." Within the limits established by those extreme positions, everything is negotiable...

I thought the requirements for 'self-improvement' on the part of the character were very much in keeping with the spirit of a Holy Warrior repenting and bettering himself within the context of his faith and his church. Very innovative and clever.

I think it would be appropriate to discuss the ramifications of the Stat and Skill Point increases (how it limits/opens up future possibilities etc.) with the newbie player so that he can make an informed decision and take the opportunity to lodge an objection - if any. I know that I wouldn't were I the player, but others might feel differently.

To players who object to the Stat/Skill requirement on the abstract 'principle' that DMs should not interfere with character development: "Don't want to do the Stat/Skill thing? Oh well, so much for a creative solution. 'Poof!' - your powers are stripped. Atone. Don't like that either? 'Poof!' - you're a warrior, get used to it. No? 'Zampf!' - Your Character is DEAD. Roll up a new one. You are no longer permitted to play a Paladin in my campaign..."

Lots of options...

Other classic punishments for Paladins - usually applied only until some sort of repentance is achieved:

Strike 'em Blind (a la Saul of Tarsus)
Bestow a Curse
Stigmata - Minus 1d4 CON + constant attrition of Hit Points from blood loss
Geas/Quest 'em
Bolts of Lightning/Fire/Searing Light/Meteors from the blue. Repeat as necessary
Healing Magic no longer works on subject
Visited with visions and nightmares - no longer able to fully rest, constantly fatigued/exhausted
Madness (a la Lancelot)
'Loss of favor' - the opposite of 'Action Points' (DM subtracts a D6 from key D20 rolls by the player)
A Celestial/Deva/Angel is dispatched to remonstrate with/punish the transgressor
Excommunicate 'em - no more support from the church or followers thereof
Sign of Cain - Something obvious that tells the whole world that Paladin-boy is in trouble
Inflict a debilitating disease - Mmmnnn Boils...​

A'Mal

 

[Cador]

Also you said that you want the Wis increase (and possibly also the skills) so that the paladin later can take a PRC you have chosen.

No. I said that I am working him towards a couple of prestige classes.

What if the player doesn't want this PRC? Ever thought about that?

Absolutely. He can just continue playing a paladin (provided he now decides to atone and try to remain a paladin). I am not preventing him from that, nor forcing him to play a particular prestige class of my choice.

At the moment, the player has built his character so that he doesn't qualify for any of the prestige classes available to paladins in my campaign. He hasn't built towards any prestige classes because he hasn't read any rulebooks introducing him to any prestige classes.

He also hasn't read and remembered enough of the PHB to be sufficiently familiar with what is required of a paladin. Consequently, he has on three occasions directly violated his code, and he is in my opinion inches away from losing his status as paladin. I don't want him to take some dangerous quest to be eligible for atonement, because I don't want to risk him losing his character, which he is rather fond of and enjoys playing. And also because, despite his faults, his character plays an important role in the story and campaign.

Instead of administering standard paladin punishment, I am using the opportunity to present the player with some options for building his character that he wasn't aware of. Namely, that he can later take some prestige classes if he continues to advance his Knowledge (Religion) and if he takes a feat that requires one point higher wisdom than he has now. I am not dictating that he takes all skills and feats required for one particular prestige class. I am just, for a while, helping him towards a couple of prestige classes, and if he later doesn't want to go in that direction, then he is free to do so.

Granted, I am (through his church) dictating how he spends one skill point for the next levels, and how he must use his next stat increase. I justify that because I (and his church) want him to remain a paladin, and want him to gain some opportunities for advancing as a paladin (namely that his church will later be able to offer him initation into a couple of prestige classes, if he is interested to work further towards that goal).

I don't really understand the negative responses. I am not telling anyone else how to run their campaigns or saying that DMs should dictate how players build their characters. Nor am I saying that my way is the best way to deal with close-to-fallen-paladins in most situations. I am merely describing what I have chosen to do in one particular instance with one particular character and his player, whom I know well enough to be fairly certain that he won't mind what I am doing.

 

[Prince of Happiness]

To players who object to the Stat/Skill requirement on the abstract 'principle' that DMs should not interfere with character development: "Don't want to do the Stat/Skill thing? Oh well, so much for a creative solution. 'Poof!' - your powers are stripped. Atone. Don't like that either? 'Poof!' - you're a warrior, get used to it. No? 'Zampf!' - Your Character is DEAD. Roll up a new one. You are no longer permitted to play a Paladin in my campaign..."

Lots of options...

Other classic punishments for Paladins - usually applied only until some sort of repentance is achieved:

Strike 'em Blind (a la Saul of Tarsus)
Bestow a Curse
Stigmata - Minus 1d4 CON + constant attrition of Hit Points from blood loss
Geas/Quest 'em
Bolts of Lightning/Fire/Searing Light/Meteors from the blue. Repeat as necessary
Healing Magic no longer works on subject
Visited with visions and nightmares - no longer able to fully rest, constantly fatigued/exhausted
Madness (a la Lancelot)
'Loss of favor' - the opposite of 'Action Points' (DM subtracts a D6 from key D20 rolls by the player)
A Celestial/Deva/Angel is dispatched to remonstrate with/punish the transgressor
Excommunicate 'em - no more support from the church or followers thereof
Sign of Cain - Something obvious that tells the whole world that Paladin-boy is in trouble
Inflict a debilitating disease - Mmmnnn Boils...​

A'Mal

I definitely like what you've brought to the table on paladin/cleric punishments. I've always contemplated using this, never got around to it. Just stripping the class status away has always sounded rather arbitrary (though could be used in an extreme case). Have more DMs used these types of punishments in play, and how did it work out?

 

[Derren]

Absolutely. He can just continue playing a paladin (provided he now decides to atone and try to remain a paladin). I am not preventing him from that, nor forcing him to play a particular prestige class of my choice.

Yet you are forcing him to spend skills, an ability increase and a feat towards a goal he doesn't even know and maybe don't want.

Instead of informing him about in advance when he does something wrong as paladin and telling him about the PRCs he may take and what he has to do for it, leaving the dcision for him you basically dictate how he has to build his character with the threat the if he doesn't follow you orders he looses his class.