When Paladins Screw Up -- Alternatives to disempowering

[Gargoyle]

I don't really understand the negative responses. I am not telling anyone else how to run their campaigns or saying that DMs should dictate how players build their characters. Nor am I saying that my way is the best way to deal with close-to-fallen-paladins in most situations. I am merely describing what I have chosen to do in one particular instance with one particular character and his player, whom I know well enough to be fairly certain that he won't mind what I am doing.

I see your point, and don't quite understand why folks want to criticize without first asking a few questions or at least giving the DM the benefit of the doubt. In my mind, as long as the player understands the consequences of what you are doing (as best he can, being a newb) any house rule you implement is fine, especially if you are trying to make things more fun for the player.

If it were me, however, I think I would require a new player to play as a fighter and earn the right to be a paladin. Either require him to multiclass into paladin after proving that he can play a lawful good fighter while adhering to the Code of Conduct, or use the prestige class version of the paladin in Unearthed Arcana. That way they can try roleplaying like a paladin, then change their mind (or you can deem them unworthy) before actually becoming a paladin without much of a repercussion; a few levels of fighter never hurts as much as a few levels of ex-paladin.

 

[Cador]

Yet you are forcing him to spend skills, an ability increase and a feat towards a goal he doesn't even know and maybe don't want.

I am not forcing him to take a feat. To be very, very precise about what I (his church) require of the paladin, it is as follows:

1. Spend at least one skill point each level on Knowledge (Religion) until the church is satisfied with his knowledge. They will at least require 3 ranks, and then tell him if he continues his studies, he will fullfill the requirements for a prestige class. They will *not* demand that he work further toward the prestige class, merely offer him the opportunity to do so.

2. Spend one stat increase on Wisdom. When he has done so, the church will tell him that if he takes a feat that he is now able to take due to his higher wisdom, he will then fulfill the requirements for another prestige class. The church will *not* demand that he take the feat, merely tell him that he can do so, if he wishes to take a prestige class.

3. Fast and be fatigued for one week each month. Probably for three months.

4. Abstain from receiving any magical healing. Probably until he has been close to dying, and thus learned the value of receiving healing (one of his violations of his code was not offering to cure a beggar dying of pneumonic plague).

That is all. I don't think it is unfair, seeing as the paladin has directly violated code and alignment three times (not attempting to help those needing help, not attempting to punish those that harm innocents, and acting clearly chaotic good in one important situation).

Instead of informing him about in advance when he does something wrong as paladin and telling him about the PRCs he may take and what he has to do for it, leaving the dcision for him you basically dictate how he has to build his character with the threat the if he doesn't follow you orders he looses his class.

Sorry, I don't understand: You don't want a DM dictating how you spend a few of your skill points for some levels as atonement, and yet you require that a DM informs a player when his paladin is about to do something he shouldn't? I think the latter is dictating and taking away freedom from a player, and I don't do that with my players. I give them a lot of freedom - it is up to them to practice the principles and codes their characters strive to live by - I don't tell them when and how they must do what I feel their characters would do. And in the case of the paladin character in my group, his freedom led him astray from his duty, so now his church is taking some of his freedom away for a while. I feel it is allright to do so, and I am fairly confident that the player will feel so too. And I do so in order to give him a few more options for building his character later on.

I'm sorry if I break a principle that is important to some of you guys. But it doesn't really concern me. My players and I only have one principle when playing: To have fun and enjoy ourselves. And in the case of the paladin, I am rather certain that the direction he is able to take because of his atonement and my (limited) involvement is going to add to his and our enjoyment of the game.

And let's leave it at that, shall we?

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Just wanted to say I'm with Cador on this one. Sheer brilliance, and it makes a paladin's "stumble" a much more significant effect than "you lose your abilities until you attone"

Hmm... Can't spel gud 2day.

 

[DragonLancer]

Cador,

I agree with you. I also believe that Paladins should have to walk a very fine line, balancing on a razor's edge basically. They have the powers to do much good, but have to follow the path strictly or risk their powers.

You've come up with a means that works in your game. Its not a method I would use, but if your group is happy then you've no problems.

 

[IronWolf]

I think Cador's way of handling the falling paladin is excellent! I recently had a paladin in a campaign of mine who was straying from the path of a paladin. I was getting quite close to needing some way to steer him back ot the path of good without necessarily stripping him of powers until he atoned. All or any combination of Cador's ideas would have been perfect for the situation in my campaign.

As for the DM dictating the player's character, I fail to see that. Paladin's must uphold stringent rules to keep the powers of that class. If the character strays from that path, they SHOULD be forced to reconcile their wrong. This is not the case of the DM stepping in and forcing a character build, this is a case of the player having their paladin go astray and then suffering the consequences of their decision. Cador's ways of handling this all seem very elegant ways of keeping the paladin on the path of good.

 

[DM_Matt]

So you got them to feel really awful about what they did. Sounds like repentence to me, which is what they would need to do to regain their powers anyways (at least the paladin would, I don't know what an "exalted" character is).

And as far as alignments go, just remember that they are there to allow certain magic spells/items and special abilities to function within the game matrix. Alignments don't dictate character behavior, they reflect it. If anything, you as the DM should be the only one who knows the character's alignments, based on their actions in the game. Many a villain (fictional or otherwise) honestly believes that they are doing the Right Thing.

At least a little self reflection is always a good way to make the party see its errors. Also you now have this NPC to keep coming back to them for guilt trips. THis could be a great plot device for future adventures.

Wow. Sounds like you did a great job "on the fly" and created some great role-playing for your group.

Can I play in this group?

And if the group eventually took care of her "for a week" it sounds like they saw the error of their ways. It was a momentary lapse of judgment (or two or three) but they've (sort of) repented. Is there a problem here? I think not.

Whoa, you guys have been more supportive than I expected. With all the serious pally threads around here it seemed like everyone runs alignment-required characters like the Spanish Inquisition is in town.

I have in fact made her a recurring character. At first they sold her magical items before freeing her, but she used some political wrangling to get them back. When her mother died, she innherited a good bit of money. Last session she tried to pay the PCs the value of the equiptment and they acutally turned it down! She's now evolved into the group's bratty little sister who can get away with almost anything. I rebuit the character to reflect that, giving her lots of ranks in sneaky/social skills and good damage-dealing (as an incentive to bring her along occasionally on adventures) but intentionally low con.