When Paladins Screw Up -- Alternatives to disempowering

[DM_Matt]

I'm not a big fan of alignment.
I'm not a big fan of behavior-based abilities. No game effect is supposed to be balanced by roleplaying restrictions.

I, however, am DMing a party with a paladin and a bunch of exalted characters. So when my party screwed up, I tried punishing them with unfortunate events that made them feel very very guilty for their actions. It worked, but OTOH, I'm worried that that is too much in violation of the rules (Yes, I know about Rule 0...I mean that it feels wrong).

Here is what I did, btw:
The PCs rough up a captive slightly. They had captured her when she and the rest of her group ambushed them without provocation in an ancient temple they were exploring. The only information they were able to glean is that they were working for some other country which probably had sometihng against the noble whose crest was on the sails of their ship. They fail to provide her with magical healing, and while interrogating her, one of them slammed her into a wall, and another sat on her until she passed out.

She was meant to be a one-shot enemy to introduce that country, but I decided instead to integrate her into the main plot, and after about three sessions, they not only found her to be good, but they failed to save her mother and sister (already allies of the pcs, not known to the pcs to be foreign agents, already supposed to be related to eachother and from taht country, but I added her to the family), and she was nearly killed by a powerful magical item that dealt damage immune to divine healing (and thus they were stuck taking care of her for a week).

I got them to feel really aweful about what they did, but I OTOH by the rules they should have been really messed up. Was what I did so bad? Anyone got any better methods of dealing with code-breaking?

 

[Aeric]

So you got them to feel really awful about what they did. Sounds like repentence to me, which is what they would need to do to regain their powers anyways (at least the paladin would, I don't know what an "exalted" character is).

And as far as alignments go, just remember that they are there to allow certain magic spells/items and special abilities to function within the game matrix. Alignments don't dictate character behavior, they reflect it. If anything, you as the DM should be the only one who knows the character's alignments, based on their actions in the game. Many a villain (fictional or otherwise) honestly believes that they are doing the Right Thing.

 

[Hoog]

At least a little self reflection is always a good way to make the party see its errors. Also you now have this NPC to keep coming back to them for guilt trips. THis could be a great plot device for future adventures.

 

[Cador]

I am in the process of punishing a paladin in my group, and I am also avoiding removing paladinhood and long atonement quests. Instead, the paladin is required to fast one week every month, meaning that he will be fatigued, with the penalties that entail. Also, he may not receive any form of magical healing - spells, potions, or his own abilities - until his church says otherwise. And lastly, he is required to spend at least one rank in Knowledge (Religion) every time he gains a level, and use his next ability increase on wisdom.

 

[Barendd Nobeard]

Wow. Sounds like you did a great job "on the fly" and created some great role-playing for your group.

Can I play in this group?

And if the group eventually took care of her "for a week" it sounds like they saw the error of their ways. It was a momentary lapse of judgment (or two or three) but they've (sort of) repented. Is there a problem here? I think not.

 

[Brian Chalian]

And lastly, he is required to spend at least one rank in Knowledge (Religion) every time he gains a level, and use his next ability increase on wisdom.

Why do you even bother having players? You can't dictate how they level, only when.

 

[DragonLancer]

Why do you even bother having players? You can't dictate how they level, only when.

I agree about the stat increse. That could potentially screw up chance for a PrC the character may be working towards, but since there is no chance for lose of paladinhood and no long atonement quest, I since that dictating a single skill point is not so bad. As a paladin he has to do what his faith and its priests tell him to do.

 

[frankthedm]

Why do you even bother having players? You can't dictate how they level, only when.

The player can choose to learn of the lessons of the past and contemplate thier meanings as penance or just lose his pladinhood. I think its quite elegant


Myself i prefer to give some paladins who-should-have-fallen- but-the-deeds-done-were-not-horrid trials of such perils that death is the most likely outcome. It could be veiwed as Paladinic seppuku. It seems harsh, but for my games, Paladins have a Guarded Soul, that assures them thier place in the afterlife, that cannot be robbed from them by soul consuming fiend, undeath, petrification or foul necromancy.

 

[Derren]

I would rather search someone who cast Atonement on me then to be forced to spend skillpoints and an ability increase on something I don't want to, especially when this screws up my character.

 

[Gothmog]

I would rather search someone who cast Atonement on me then to be forced to spend skillpoints and an ability increase on something I don't want to, especially when this screws up my character.

Not all DMs would allow a simple Atonement spell to completely erase any moral stain from the paladin (I know I wouldn't). Atonement is a spell that if used exactly as the PHB states, kills roleplaying. I might use it at the end of a time of repentence and sacrifice by a paladin as the ceremony that grants his abilities back, but never something that is simply cast on him and and POOF his abilities are restored. And the XP cost for the CASTING cleric seems kinda wonky- shouldn't the XP sacrifice come from the recipient, not the caster?

Anyway, I think what DM_Matt did was completely justified, and enhanced his game. Don't feel bad about it or regret it- feel grateful you have a group that embraces such a challenge and integrates it into the game!

Also, Cador's requirement of one skill point per level and a WIS stat increase as the cost of atonement in leiu of ability loss is very fair. This can be seen as a demand by his superiors (and possibly god) to come to grips with his faith and conscience before he is accepted back into the faithful. When you play a paladin, you have a walk a straight and narrow path, and if a player screws up, sacrifices are required to get back into good graces. If that screws up his "build", so be it- he should have considered that back when he committed the transgression (after the DM warned him of possible consequences of course).