D&D General When Players Refuse to learn The Rules

[Thomas Shey]

Whether this is true or not (and I suspect the latter) it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, because I am talking about players who don't bother to learn whatever rules that are present (not some specious argument about whether WotC is "dumbing down" those rules).

Yeah, honestly, even 5e has spell traits and class features that you need to engage with. Its not a true rules light game by any stretch.

 

[jasper]

Don't play with that jerk. Which the reason I am on the couch and my spouse is not playing when I GM.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Some people just don't intuit rules systems or interfaces well. It's not that they can't be bothered, it's that this sort of thing just doesn't 'click' for them, and no matter how many times they go over it or have it explained to the point where they grasp it in that moment, they don't retain it.

It's just the way people are wired - we all have issues with one thing or another. I'm good with this sort of thing, but terrible with names and faces.

Instead of making the student fit the lesson make the lesson fit the student??

 

[Dausuul]

This isn't about WotC dumbing down, it's about many game designers dumbing down their own rules. Read what I wrote. Check out the Alexandrian Twitter. Low rules players entering the game is an issue, whether you see it or not.

I read what you wrote. It was a bunch of sweeping assertions with zero specifics. And I'm not trolling though some Twitter feed on your say-so; if I wanted to read Twitter, I'd be there, not here.

If you would like to discuss something, you could at least do everyone the courtesy of posting a link to the specific thing you want to discuss.

 

[Stalker0]

This bothers me too, especially with people who been playing for years. And baffling too, as these are really smart people (if I have to explain how to calculate spell save dc one more time...)

From a design standpoint this is an interesting topic. I too have to frequently remind my players what their spell dcs are.

On the surface this seems extremely easy especially in 5e. There is a good chance my dc on all spells won’t change for like 3 levels.

and yet players who are otherwise pretty sharp struggle to remember over and over again. What about that mechanic is so unintuitive that people continue to struggle with it?

 

[Ancalagon]

If I get a pick between a player that loves to role play and enjoy the story and has no understanding of the rules of the game or VTT software, or a player that knows every rule and trick in the software but treats the game as a MMORPG with no care to the story, and not a whit of personality to their character ... I'm take the first every time.

Suggestion: Don't give the 'rules loafers' the answer when they need a rule question answered. Instead, point them to where the rule or information is. I often give these folks 'cheat sheets' to simplify their PCs onto a 'menu' of what they can do with a section for Actions, Bonus Actions, Reactions, Move Replacements, and 'Ongoing Abilities' (like a paladin aura, darkvision, etc...). It helps to get them started.

I built a "chart" for my GF who was struggling with her monk, it helped a lot.

 

[Ancalagon]

"You gesticulate randomly and utter nonsense while throwing wads of bat guano and flowers in the air. Your idiocy provokes opportunity attacks." [to other players] "Any takers?"

You do realize that this "the GM takes care of all the rules" style of play started at the very start of D&D? These are thing that need to be discussed in a session zero.

It is feasible btw, but probably not for a game as complex as 5e.

 

[Ancalagon]

I had a player who hadn't played since 2e. He forgot all the 5e rules between games but remembered the 2e rules and was constantly confused trying to do things the wrong way. After several games I told him to prepare before each game because it wasn't my job to remind him the rules every session. He decided to leave the game. I hope he found a 2e game.

The capacity to learn new things go down as you age. I used to have near perfect knowledge of 2nd rules. I will probably neve attain that level of rule mastery with 5e.

 

[Ancalagon]

Even OD&D expected players to know how their own damn spells worked and what they're class features were; to understand how to roll an attack roll and what to add to it. That kind of thing was never just the GM's job.

You should read on up how Anderson ran the game...

 

[Malmuria]

From a design standpoint this is an interesting topic. I too have to frequently remind my players what their spell dcs are.

On the surface this seems extremely easy especially in 5e. There is a good chance my dc on all spells won’t change for like 3 levels.

and yet players who are otherwise pretty sharp struggle to remember over and over again. What about that mechanic is so unintuitive that people continue to struggle with it?

Not sure, but I try to keep this in mind now when choosing a system. Maybe because the base is 8 instead of 10? Honestly I would prefer if instead of spell saves creatures got a "spell defense" stat, and the player had to make an attack roll. From the players' point of view, everything else in the game is ' you want to do this? ok, roll d20 and add x' except when a monster needs to make a saving throw