D&D 5E When RAW goes too far

[shadowoflameth]

Some people urgently need more to do. You could indeed fire two loaded hand crossbows in one round. but their being one handed weapons has to do with firing them, not loading them. a longbow is in two hands to fire but does not have the load property that requires loading after firing. If you ignore the load property and can reload it without an action RAW you would still need a bolt. Meaning in your hand. If a player demonstrated to me getting bolt out of a quiver with no hands and loading it, I'd allow it (and be very impressed with his circus skills, but in more seriousness, this kind of player should run his own game so that he can allow what he wants.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Some people urgently need more to do. [...]

Hmmm... I wonder if Covid-related self-isolation is causing a spike in rules-lawyering?

 

[Asisreo]

Sometimes, as a DM, I can be quite uptight about the rules. It's not quite because I think the rules are so correct that they couldn't possibly be dumb but I hate doubling back from rules and upsetting the players. For example, when I was a new DM hotshot that thought I could do anything as long as it was "fun," I let my players and monsters do a counterattack for free because I didn't think it was realistic that someone would sit there waiting to be hit. Never again.

That said, I don't let the rules stop players from doing whatever they want, I just have them do it within the aspects of the rules. For instance, someone wanted to carve javelins from frog bones overnight. There wasn't a specific rule for turning bones to weapons, but there was basic crafting rules. I told him he'd need a tool (whatever he could justify) and could make up to 10 javelins from the bones. He was slightly upset because "why do I need anything but a knife to sharpen bone?"

Well, two reasons: Nobody here at the table truly knows how one would go about turning frog bones into weapons and I didn't want the game to devolve into collecting dozens of bones of their enemy for free. I think people should work for those out of cuff things too, so they earn it not beg me and I throw it to them.

 

[Lanefan]

If the game doesn't say you can do it, you can't, no matter how clever you think you are.
If the game says you can do it, you can.

That's 3e thinking, at its worst.

In 1e and in 5e, it's "If the game doesn't say you can do it, there's nothing stopping you from trying anyway. Success not guaranteed."

 

[Lanefan]

That said, I don't let the rules stop players from doing whatever they want, I just have them do it within the aspects of the rules. For instance, someone wanted to carve javelins from frog bones overnight. There wasn't a specific rule for turning bones to weapons, but there was basic crafting rules. I told him he'd need a tool (whatever he could justify) and could make up to 10 javelins from the bones. He was slightly upset because "why do I need anything but a knife to sharpen bone?"

Well, two reasons: Nobody here at the table truly knows how one would go about turning frog bones into weapons and I didn't want the game to devolve into collecting dozens of bones of their enemy for free. I think people should work for those out of cuff things too, so they earn it not beg me and I throw it to them.

They did work for it.

You don't specify whether these are frogs the party killed, but even then the work consisted of a) coming up with the idea and b) doing the gathering and carving at cost of a night's rest.

I'd count this as cool, and allow it every time.

 

[Asisreo]

They did work for it.

You don't specify whether these are frogs the party killed, but even then the work consisted of a) coming up with the idea and b) doing the gathering and carving at cost of a night's rest.

I'd count this as cool, and allow it every time.

I also thought it was cool and I allowed it, but I don't think coming up with this idea was anything special. I mean, when something's dead the first thing that comes to mind for a player is "How can I use this dead thing to my advantage?" Especially when it's mindless like a frog. But the biggest reason was that if effective Javelins could be made very easily by removing frog bones and carving with a knife, why wouldn't the entire world use frog bones or bones in general? They very well could if that's the type of world I felt like making but it's too quirky for my adventure that I wanted to be grounded.

Besides, tools outside of thieves tools don't get nearly the amount of love they should and I want players that have a tool proficiency to feel like they invested in a feature and not like they had to waste lead on a section of the sheet they'll never look at. Most importantly, javelins are a bit more complex than "make a pointy stick" because they need appropriate weight distribution and yadda-yadda so I'd say you'd need to be a bit specialized to do it.

I think you should be able to do anything, but you need to work for the anything that you want to do. If I find it really cool, I'll toss inspiration at you.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Hmmm... I wonder if Covid-related self-isolation is causing a spike in rules-lawyering?

Nah, I can mute a player on Zoom. It is much harder in real life.
I might switch to Zoom permanently just due to this alone.

 

[Oofta]

Nah, I can mute a player on Zoom. It is much harder in real life.
I might switch to Zoom permanently just due to this alone.

I dunno, duct tape works too.

 

[Lanefan]

I also thought it was cool and I allowed it, but I don't think coming up with this idea was anything special. I mean, when something's dead the first thing that comes to mind for a player is "How can I use this dead thing to my advantage?" Especially when it's mindless like a frog. But the biggest reason was that if effective Javelins could be made very easily by removing frog bones and carving with a knife, why wouldn't the entire world use frog bones or bones in general? They very well could if that's the type of world I felt like making but it's too quirky for my adventure that I wanted to be grounded.

Besides, tools outside of thieves tools don't get nearly the amount of love they should and I want players that have a tool proficiency to feel like they invested in a feature and not like they had to waste lead on a section of the sheet they'll never look at. Most importantly, javelins are a bit more complex than "make a pointy stick" because they need appropriate weight distribution and yadda-yadda so I'd say you'd need to be a bit specialized to do it.

Yeah, javelins might be pushing it, but spears? Sure, go for it!

And my game doesn't have tool proficiencies as such, so I'm off the hook there too.

I think you should be able to do anything, but you need to work for the anything that you want to do. If I find it really cool, I'll toss inspiration at you.

Yeah, inspiration as a mechanic (and any similar ideas) does nothing for me at all, as there's really no way to prevent it from quickly becoming very meta-gamey.

 

[Asisreo]

Yeah, javelins might be pushing it, but spears? Sure, go for it!

And my game doesn't have tool proficiencies as such, so I'm off the hook there too.

Yeah, inspiration as a mechanic (and any similar ideas) does nothing for me at all, as there's really no way to prevent it from quickly becoming very meta-gamey.

The best way to prevent it from being meta-gamey is to kinda be mean with it. If you see someone exploit the system to get inspiration, just say "I know what you're doing. Nice try, bucko but you'll need to be more creative if you want inspiration.

How do you prevent hording it? Say "I would've given you inspiration but it seems you already have one." Out loud directed at the person who would've earned it. That quickly makes players realize that it's a use-it-or-lose-it deal.

I should also state that I hate coddling my players because I hate being coddled myself. When a DM says "you got a nat20 on the medicine check to stabilize so you get 1 hp," even if it helps, I have a bitter taste for the rest of the fight because that'snot how I was supposed to play. I tell the DM, but they think it's better to avoid tpk's which it isn't. It soon feels like there isn't any real danger or challenge.

I make my players earn it and only if they want to earn it. Nothing in the game comes free and nothing will be exploited.

Also, javelins are cheaper than spears in D&D so I imagined them as a more primitive but still well-made version and spears are a bit more well-crafted.