When to roll initiative?

[Alhazred]

I avoid rolling initiative until someone makes a hostile action (generally defined as attacking but may involve actions such as escaping/retreating ["The orc suddenly turns and flees"] - generally anything action not immediately inimical to the PCs health). I'll permit a player to ready an action or delay an action ("My archer shoots the wizards if the wizard makes the slightest gesture", "I won't do anything until after the paladin's action") if he so desires. Of course, the NPCs are permitted the same luxury, so it's not unusual for several actions to occur in the surprise round (ie, the round before initiatives are rolled IMC).

I've had little problem with this system, although it is pretty ad hoc and can be inconsistent, that is, when I forget a player's request for a readied action. Still, I've had no complaints; my players are used to the system.

 

[Thanee]

Right, no readied actions outside of combat. PHB p. 137 (The Surprise Round): "Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative."

Either way the sniper rolls inititative and takes their surprise round, in this case, readying an action. Or firing if one of the PCs spotted him and decides to attack I suppose.

Yeah, the problem in your thinking is, that the surprise round only really does something meaningful, if the sniper actually shoots (or does something else).

Sure, he could simply ready, but then next round initiative is rolled normally for everyone.

If that is not possible, since noone knows about the sniper yet and it doesn't make sense to roll initiative then. Combat is obviously over, since noone wants to do anything, and the readied action is gone with it.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Liquidsabre]

If that is not possible, since noone knows about the sniper yet and it doesn't make sense to roll initiative then. Combat is obviously over, since noone wants to do anything, and the readied action is gone with it.

Yes but when *does* it make sense to roll initiative then? That's the question. If the combat ends and there is no more initiative, then the same sniper can continue to do this next round, and the round after that, until there *is* combat. Theoretically, still giving the sniper a surprise round with a readied action for when characters do act.

What if the sniper is spotted though and characters decide to roll their initiatives? Many of them delay and others ready their own actions perhaps, all are tense for a showdown. If nothing happens for the first round or two, does combat just end? Really the best answer is probably have it last as long as it makes sense. Which of course varies between games and DMs. The entire point is, depending upon the circumstances, rolling for initiative isn't always a clear cut answer that everyone will be able to agree upon all the time. For some groups, who haven't completely agreed on how to handle it, this can cause disruptive arguements at the game table.

I'm really mostly playing devil's advocate here (these complex situations don't come up that often for game groups I imagine) but I also don't have a satisfactory answer for some of these more complex situations. I was hoping someone else might have a good answer, but none seem all that clear-cut afterall!

 

[Vurt]

Right, no readied actions outside of combat. PHB p. 137 (The Surprise Round): "Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative."

Either way the sniper rolls inititative and takes their surprise round, in this case, readying an action. Or firing if one of the PCs spotted him and decides to attack I suppose.

That there is a surprise round already presumes that combat has begun. Put another way, you cannot ready an action outside of combat.

Here's how I read the situation:

It's high noon, there's not a cloud in the sky. Abe and Bill have come to settle their differences once and for all. Snape hears word of it, and waits on the roof of a nearby building for reasons of his own.

Abe slowly saunters down the dusty street. A tumbleweed lazily crosses in front of him, as he wipes the sweat off his brow. On either side of the street, townsfolk are quickly scurrying into buildings, shuttering windows, and otherwise making themselves scarce. Snape watches as Bill steps into view.

Abe: "I've had enough of you bad-mouthing my horse! You're gonna 'pologize to Betsy or I'm gonna put you down right where you stand!" Abe's hand hovers over his six-shooter, his fingers flexing in anticipation.

Bill: "Well, you know Betsy was my horse 'fore you stole her from me. Y'ouse nuthin' but a filthy horse-rustler." He spits before adding, "Yeah, we's gonna settle this all right, we's gonna settle this good!"

What happens next depends on whether Abe or Bill notice Snape. Spot checks all around versus Snape's Hide roll. If Snape wins, he can either watch, or initiate combat. If Abe or Bill spot Snape, then what they do about it plays a big role in the outcome.

If Snape successfully hides and continues to watch, that is, he does not initiate the combat, then when gunfire does erupt, he rolls initiative along with Abe and Bill. When his turn comes around, he can chose to do whatever he wants, including continuing to watch.

Five minutes tick by as Bill and Abe cuss each other out. Townsfolk peek anxiously through cracks in the doorway, wondering when the show's going to begin. Suddenly, Bill reaches for his pistol...

Roll for initiative. Bill has initiated combat, but because of luck, Dex, and Improved Initiative, Abe goes first, then Bill, and finally Snape.

...but Abe is a split hair faster, shooting and moving to one side. With his left hand, Bill clutches his chest. He looks down, surprised to see the crimson flower growing there. His head tilts up one last time to look his killer in the eye, and then he collapses face-first into the dirt.

"Horse-pucky," thinks Snape from his perch, surprised at how quickly violence erupted. "Bill was my friend, I ain't gonna stand for that!" He fires at Abe.

Since Abe hasn't spotted Snape, Snape is effectively invisible to Abe. He gets the +2 to hit, along with another +1 for attacking from higher ground, and Abe, who doesn't have Uncanny Dodge, loses his Dex bonus to AC for the shot. (Had Snape been visible, off to one side, but not regarded as a threat, Abe would instead simply be flat-footed to Snape's dirty, underhanded, surprise attack.) Snape miraculously misses. And that is the extent of Snape's "surprise round", which isn't one in the sense of a free attack, but rather in the SURPRISE! aspect of the action he is allowed to take.

Since Abe is next in the initiative order, he goes next. Abe sees Snape up on the roof of the bank, and starts firing back while dashing to the other side of the road, looking to find some better cover. And combat continues normally from there, as you would expect.

Now, had Snape initiated combat:

Five minutes tick by as Bill and Abe cuss each other out. Townsfolk peek anxiously through cracks in the doorway, wondering when the show's going to begin. Snape thinks to himself, "Are these two yahoos gonna yammer on all day? Abe? It was nice knowing ya..." He lines up his Springfield and fires.

Snape has initiated combat. Everyone rolls for initiative. In the order rolled, Abe goes first, then Bill, followed by Snape. But since neither Abe nor Bill are aware of Snape, Snape gets his surprise round.

A *CRACK* thunders from the rooftop behind Abe, and a little puff of dirt erupts next to his right foot.

Since Abe hasn't spotted Snape, Snape is effectively invisible to Abe. He gets the +2 to hit, along with another +1 for attacking from higher ground, and Abe, who doesn't have Uncanny Dodge, loses his Dex bonus to AC for the shot. (Had Snape been visible, off to one side, but not regarded as a threat, Abe would instead simply be flat-footed to Snape's dirty, underhanded, surprise attack.) Snape miraculously misses. And that is the extent of Snape's surprise round. Abe goes next, as he's still first in the initiative order, and combat continues as you would expect.

If Snape had initiated combat and won the initiative, he would get to act twice before anyone else gets the chance to react, once for his surprise round, and again for being on top of the order.

A *CRACK* thunders from the rooftop behind Abe, and a little puff of dirt erupts next to the surprised cowboy's right foot. Abe spins, trying to spot the sharpshooter, but Snape has already snapped back the bolt and... *CRACK*

Bill stares, dumbfounded, through the space where Abe's head used to be. His hand moves away from his pistol as his thoughts tries to catch up to his heart, lodged somewhere upwards of his throat.

This is why rogues find Improved Initiative to actually be a decent feat.

Now, if Abe spotted Snape and Snape knew he was made, but Bill failed his own Spot check, then both Abe and Snape would get to act in the surprise round, while Bill simply stands there trying to think of an appropriate comeback to Abe's empty threats.

The point to remember is, even though somebody may think they know what's going on, they can still be surprised. And sometimes, because of indecision or bad rolls, even though by all rights one party should be going first, you can't always count on it.

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Initiatives...IMC

I apply a rule I heard from an Anime game. There is a 'Speak-out' moment outside of time before combat begins... that does not make much sense does it?

Basically:
Phase 0: 2 potentially hostile groups meet.
Phase 1: between the start of the encounter and the start of combat, the characters are allowed to talk, diplomancy, bluff, etc... but... any action that the other side starts to take as 'initiating combat' causes the encounter to go to the next phase.
{Example actions are drawing a weapon, moving into a favorable position, casting a spell, etc.. all dependant on the specifics of each encounter}
Note, some 'threatening' actions such as readying a weapon may not be taken as such as action, depending on circumstances and opponents. Generally the characters just talk until one side decides to attack.
Phase 2: Surprise round. Spot/Sense Motive/or other appropriate skill based on what the action starting combat is.
Phase 3: Normal combat rounds.

Initiative can be rolled at either Phase 0 or Phase 2.. I use sets of prerolled initiatives in order to keep things as seamless as possible.

This allows for an ambusher to try to talk the ambushee into forfeiting treasure for safe passage.. or the ever famous 'dont move or I will shoot!' ...or at least have the bad guy have enough time to say how horrible the good guys are

Of course, there are times where one side has no desire to talk to the other, so Phase 1 ends up being virtualy non-existant.

This system has worked well for me in my last game, and is being well received in the new campaign I just started.

Vurt, I like your description, however it looks like you are saying Snape gets a surprise round action after combat started, which is not true. He would have been in normal combat rounds and simply delaying each round until he chose to fire from his hiding position. The only time you get a surprise round is at the start of the combat encounter.

 

[Vurt]

Vurt, I like your description, however it looks like you are saying Snape gets a surprise round action after combat started, which is not true. He would have been in normal combat rounds and simply delaying each round until he chose to fire from his hiding position. The only time you get a surprise round is at the start of the combat encounter.

Thanks.

Well, Snape doesn't get a free action out of his "surprise round", but his target is effectively flat-footed to his attack when Snape does choose to show his true colours.

It would have been more clear, I admit, if I had Snape simply watching from out of the way, not a threat to either Abe or Bill, but not hiding either.

And thanks for pointing that out. I've edited the previous post somewhat to try and clarify the matter.

Cheers,
Vurt