D&D General When We Were Wizards: Review of the Completed Podcast!

[TiQuinn]

Artists. They want unlimited ability to create and hate any kind of limitations. And yet, it was precisely the limitations of the market that I think made D&D so popular. For example, I loved the part where they were told by marketing that they had to start drawing more mom approved art (or something like that). I think it was interesting that the creatives balked at this, and yet, I know in my personal case, my mother would have not allowed me to have D&D if it has featured the kind of artwork that the creatives wanted to include. In this case I am grateful that business side won out, because it meant I could have D&D books.

There are several points in the podcast where I’m somewhat struck by the naïveté of some of the designers, particularly when it comes to designing for “kids”. Like, they really thought they were designing for their hobby buddies.

Also it’s not the only industry where creatives are at odds with management and there’s hopefully that middle management tier which often gets denigrated but they straddle that line between the two because they usually moved up from creative into management and can talk to both sides. Jim Ward sounds like he was kind of that guy here but they needed more.

 

[M.T. Black]

the thing that i find interesting so far (im on ep7) is that while everyone they talk to who worked for TSR intellectually knows Gary was not being his best, they have nothing but contempt for the Blumes (and I assume later Williams). And yet, it seems that Gary planted all the seeds of destruction (yes others did contribute, i don't think gary is soley to blame, but he seems to still be held in kind of a mythic place).

People didn't like Kevin Blume, but one thing I learned was that Brian and Doug Blume both seemed popular with staff.

 

[Clint_L]

the thing that i find interesting so far (im on ep7) is that while everyone they talk to who worked for TSR intellectually knows Gary was not being his best, they have nothing but contempt for the Blumes (and I assume later Williams).

Not Williams (not sure why'd you assume that), or Brian Blume. But Kevin Blume, for sure. "Not being his best" is a pretty generous assessment of what most of them say about Gygax. He was pretty horrible to a lot of people, and a lot of specific examples are given. The ex-employee newsletter that reported on TSR insider gossip was extremely negative towards him.

 

[damiller]

Not Williams (not sure why'd you assume that), or Brian Blume. But Kevin Blume, for sure. "Not being his best" is a pretty generous assessment of what most of them say about Gygax. He was pretty horrible to a lot of people, and a lot of specific examples are given. The ex-employee newsletter that reported on TSR insider gossip was extremely negative towards him.

My assumption about Williams I guess is based on what I've heard from gamers who talk about this, they have not been charitable towards her. So it was a guess, as I said (though I used the word assume, it was a guess at best - as I stated I am only half way through the podcast, hopefully that doesn't mean I can't particpate in this thread).

And I have to disagree with you. From what I heard from those people, sans folks like Dave Arneson, is still hero worship. That is what I hear. And I wish I could remember the quote, but I know at least one person said something along the lines, "but he (gygax) had a company to run". There seemed to me, to be a lot of yea he was doing "less than best" BUUUTTTT... I didn't hear that kind of language used about the Blumes. They were pirates, they were "gasp" business folk, who wanted to turn a buck.

 

[damiller]

People didn't like Kevin Blume, but one thing I learned was that Brian and Doug Blume both seemed popular with staff.

perhaps I conflated them when I have listened or read anything about them. It seemed they were all disliked.

There are several points in the podcast where I’m somewhat struck by the naïveté of some of the designers, particularly when it comes to designing for “kids”. Like, they really thought they were designing for their hobby buddies.

Also it’s not the only industry where creatives are at odds with management and there’s hopefully that middle management tier which often gets denigrated but they straddle that line between the two because they usually moved up from creative into management and can talk to both sides. Jim Ward sounds like he was kind of that guy here but they needed more.

Yea, being a startup, essentially, they didn't have middle management yet.

 

[Clint_L]

My assumption about Williams I guess is based on what I've heard from gamers who talk about this, they have not been charitable towards her. So it was a guess, as I said (though I used the word assume, it was a guess at best - as I stated I am only half way through the podcast, hopefully that doesn't mean I can't particpate in this thread).

And I have to disagree with you. From what I heard from those people, sans folks like Dave Arneson, is still hero worship. That is what I hear. And I wish I could remember the quote, but I know at least one person said something along the lines, "but he (gygax) had a company to run". There seemed to me, to be a lot of yea he was doing "less than best" BUUUTTTT... I didn't hear that kind of language used about the Blumes. They were pirates, they were "gasp" business folk, who wanted to turn a buck.

I’m not sure we listened to the same podcast.

 

[TiQuinn]

I’m not sure we listened to the same podcast.

I didn't get the sense that anyone was particularly fond of Williams in the podcast either. In fact, one of the closing lines is Rose Estes saying "I felt that was wrong, it was like dethroning a king" and then "They killed the heart. I don't know how you can be proud of that."

It's funny because I would be like, have you listened to anything you just said, Rose? The heart? You kidding me?

And then Jim Ward: "She really kind of had a superior attitude that role-playing in gaming in the hobby industry was just kind of a silly activity that would never amount to much. And everybody could sense that attitude and heard that attitude from her."

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I didn't get the sense that anyone was particularly fond of Williams in the podcast either. In fact, one of the closing lines is Rose Estes saying "I felt that was wrong, it was like dethroning a king" and then "They killed the heart. I don't know how you can be proud of that."

It's funny because I would be like, have you listened to anything you just said, Rose? The heart? You kidding me?

And then Jim Ward: "She really kind of had a superior attitude that role-playing in gaming in the hobby industry was just kind of a silly activity that would never amount to much. And everybody could sense that attitude and heard that attitude from her."

This may shock you (HA!) but I covered Lorraine Williams before.....

I think that a lot of the inchoate dislike towards her that later became calcified into "common wisdom" really needs to be re-evaluated. And the more we get real histories (this, and more importantly, books like Game Wizards) the more we see that a lot of the hate toward Williams is the product of attitudes of the time, and not of actual events.


ETA- @damiller @Clint_L on the topic of the Blumes, I have to admit that this podcast did a good job of making me re-evaluate my feelings. As I briefly wrote, I tended to view "the Brothers Blume" as a singular entity before. Now, I see that there was a real difference between Brian and Kevin. Brian from all accounts was a nice guy and well liked, if not particularly competent. Kevin, on the other hand? I think the only positive thing said about him was something along the lines of "If you got him out to dinner away from the company, he wasn't always a complete tool."

 

[damiller]

ETA- @damiller @Clint_L on the topic of the Blumes, I have to admit that this podcast did a good job of making me re-evaluate my feelings. As I briefly wrote, I tended to view "the Brothers Blume" as a singular entity before. Now, I see that there was a real difference between Brian and Kevin. Brian from all accounts was a nice guy and well liked, if not particularly competent. Kevin, on the other hand? I think the only positive thing said about him was something along the lines of "If you got him out to dinner away from the company, he wasn't always a complete tool."

I would say that was my take as well. I didn't realize that there was a differentiation between them in terms of how TSR folks felt about them.

 

[damiller]

I’m not sure we listened to the same podcast.

That may be, but I provided at least one example of what I was talking about. And I am sure that if I wanted to I could find more. Those qualifiers are present, and they limit, or soften, the criticism for the listener. I did not hear any qualifiers, that I can remember, from the interviewees when they spoke about folks like Brian Blume (the Lorraine stuff is later in the podcasts and I am no that far, as i have mentioned).