D&D General When We Were Wizards: Review of the Completed Podcast!

[Riley]

…So many lives blighted, so many friendships sundered and relationships destroyed, so much potential wasted, so much folly and ego and foolishness. Tragedies are gonna tragedy I guess.

Great observations, humble minion.

I came into D&D in 1981, but I largely agree with your perspectives on both the Gygax and the Williams eras.

For me, both eras have one thing in common:

Each was a glorious mess.

Each produced both wonderful visionary works, and also a flood of lousy dreck. Many times in the same book.

And each was apparently both glorious and terrible for the people who created those works.

And I love both eras dearly, because this was the stuff of my games and my dreams.

 

[billd91]

The buy-out offer that Williams made to Gary certainly was mind-blowingly enormous. I have to wonder - where did this money come from? We hear a lot about TSRs $5 million rolling credit line - which they continually rode right to the ragged edge - where on earth was TSR going to find over three times that amount to buy Gary out? It sounds a lot like they'd have had to go FURTHER into debt, and expensive leveraged buyouts of profit-marginal businesses rarely go well (see, Toys R Us, Red Lobster). I wonder how much of Williams's vaunted business reputation in turning TSR around was due to her luck in NOT getting on the hook for that deal because Gary said no?

Well, it wasn't going to be a lump sum of cash - it was to be staged out over a number of years, as I understand it. TSR had revenue, it was just poorly and chaotically managed against expenses. The banks were looking for a stability that Gygax was completely undermining and unable/unwilling to provide. Neutralizing Gygax with a solid plan, even if an expensive plan, was something the banks could accept because it could be managed.

 

[M.T. Black]

The time in Hollywood makes me wonder - who was Gary playing games with at that time? It sounds like everything was drinking, shmoozing, networking, dealmaking, hanging around in bars and clubs,and parties round the pool. Was he even playing regularly at all? ... We hear a lot from Flint Dibble, did he play games with Gary? It almost seems to me like the Hollywood big-spender years were the signs of a man who thought he'd already won the biggest game in the world, and didn't really know what came next.

I can't seem to remember Dibble having much to say on the podcast about Williams's takeover of the company. She was his sister, that must have put him in an awkward position re his friendship with Gary. I wonder how that worked out, especially since Dibble/Williams family made big bucks out of TSR (over the Flash Gordon thing, among others) later on.

Flint Dille released a memoir a few years ago called "The Gamemaster," and it discusses this era in some detail. It turns out that Gary frequently gamed in the TSR mansion in LA, and Dille was often at the table. In support of your prior point, it sounds like they played a lot more Chainmail than D&D. Dille recalls the gaming room:

"There was a large open area, which had a couch and chairs and an assistant’s desk, and Matthew built us a giant hundred-square-foot sand table. There were some cubby shelves that contained Gary’s three thousand Elastolin medieval miniatures, which we used for playing Chainmail."

He later says:

"It always seemed like there was a Chainmail game going on in the background. If the real player wasn’t there, somebody subbed for him. We encouraged people to randomly show up beyond the Sunday night games. The game must go on. And it did—probably didn’t stop for two years. There’d be new scenarios and riffs, but there was never an end."

With regards to Gary feeling like he had "already won," I don't get that perception. Instead, I think he was desperately trying to break into this new world of media, and having mixed success.

 

[humble minion]

Flint Dille released a memoir a few years ago called "The Gamemaster," and it discusses this era in some detail. It turns out that Gary frequently gamed in the TSR mansion in LA, and Dille was often at the table. In support of your prior point, it sounds like they played a lot more Chainmail than D&D. Dille recalls the gaming room:

Yeah, I suspected as much. The podcast kinda skates over any of the friends and new associates that Gary made in the days of TSRs success (with the exception of Dille himself), i think because it’s really trying to emphasise the ‘tragedy of the American dream’ narrative of ‘success made him lose everything and everyone!’ and portray him as near-alone in the world at the end, and discussion of new friends and a new social circle may have undermined their theme a bit. Even Gail is really only mentioned in passing, compared to all the time spent on Gary’s relationship with Mary Jo.

 

[humble minion]

Well, it wasn't going to be a lump sum of cash - it was to be staged out over a number of years, as I understand it. TSR had revenue, it was just poorly and chaotically managed against expenses. The banks were looking for a stability that Gygax was completely undermining and unable/unwilling to provide. Neutralizing Gygax with a solid plan, even if an expensive plan, was something the banks could accept because it could be managed.

I’d have to go back and relisten to the relevant bit of the podcast, my jaw was kinda on the floor at that point.

My recollection is that the offer was for all of Gary’s 800 shares at a way-above market value of $3000 each, plus the trademarks to D&D, plus a lump sum payout and a sum of $500k/yr for 5 years in exchange for nixing the royalties deals (owed and ongoing) and TSR no longer paying for Gary’s mansion in LA. The total mentioned was $17 million, of which only $2.5m was paid in instalments. Am I misremembering? Because that would imply that $15m would still have to be found. That’s a huge chunk of change, though admittedly it in the interest of getting some massive ongoing liabilities off the balance sheet, so the bank may not have just laughed them out of the room. Given later events, I’m a bit uncertain of Williams’s ability to manage and restructure the company into sound profit-making venture, however. I suspect that if Gary had taken the deal, TSR would have crumbled much earlier under the weight of the debt load.

Also I’m a bit unsure who’d actually be paying this money - TSR as a corporate entity, or Williams herself. Presumably Williams wanted to end up the new owner of Gary’s shares, so she must have contributed some money herself, but only TSR could choose to transfer D&Ds trademarks, not her in her private capacity. Unless, of course, the lines between TSR corporate money and Williams’s interests were already becoming blurred, just like they did under Gary and the Blumes. The more things change…

It occurs to me that a similar series about Williams would be profoundly fascinating too. How did she turn from this hard-headed ruthless dealmaker and money person into someone who just sleepwalked her company into insolvency because she wasn’t involved or competent enough to realise they were manufacturing and selling stuff at a loss.

Sounds like we’ll never get it though. She seems to have firmly shut the door on that part of her life.

 

[billd91]

Also I’m a bit unsure who’d actually be paying this money - TSR as a corporate entity, or Williams herself. Presumably Williams wanted to end up the new owner of Gary’s shares, so she must have contributed some money herself, but only TSR could choose to transfer D&Ds trademarks, not her in her private capacity. Unless, of course, the lines between TSR corporate money and Williams’s interests were already becoming blurred, just like they did under Gary and the Blumes. The more things change…

Yeah, the money for Gygax’s shares would have been from Williams since she was the one who would have purchased them. The renegotiated royalties offer was what would come out of TSR and that was over 5 years. Ownership of the trademarks would have been non-cash assets but all within the company owner’s power to grant - and after buying Gygax’s shares, Williams would have owned the vast majority.

 

[humble minion]

Yeah, the money for Gygax’s shares would have been from Williams since she was the one who would have purchased them

That was my assumption, but I was wondering if there was any possible slick maneuvering possible there too. For instance, having TSR buy its own shares back from Gary. This would have had the effect of taking those shares out of circulation and boosting the value of Williams’s shares (and the shares of the other small shareholders) and strengthening her hold over the company, without her having to pay out the cash herself.

I’m certainly not competent enough with finance, trading etc to know whether such a ploy would be legal, or even possible though.

 

[Mr. Lahey]

2. Gary Gygax was like quadruple-dipping into the company. He was a shareholder of the company. He got royalties on his own work published through the company. He had TSR paying for his entire crazy lavish Hollywood lifestyle, and he still thought that all the IP was his alone if he walked away. He would often pay back the company's debt to him on his royalties to pay for his own expenses living in Hollywood.

And Gygax was totally absent in protecting the creative core for his company. He comes across as selfish, lazy, and indulgent. It's not clear that he ever cares about anyone or anything but himself.

One other aspect to the whole issue of Gary claiming royalties, was having his name added to the works of others. I probably need to listen to the podcast again, but I don’t think any of the sources really discussed this.

One theme the creators repeated was “culture eats strategy for breakfast” when describing how the creatives at TSR felt Gary was entitled to his royalties despite the effect it was having on the company. They mention how they all lost their entitlement to royalties but I don’t think they go deep into how Gary actually took royalties away from the actual uncredited authors. I’m surprised there were no lawsuits to retroactively collect royalties.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

One other aspect to the whole issue of Gary claiming royalties, was having his name added to the works of others. I probably need to listen to the podcast again, but I don’t think any of the sources really discussed this.

One theme the creators repeated was “culture eats strategy for breakfast” when describing how the creatives at TSR felt Gary was entitled to his royalties despite the effect it was having on the company. They mention how they all lost their entitlement to royalties but I don’t think they go deep into how Gary actually took royalties away from the actual uncredited authors. I’m surprised there were no lawsuits to retroactively collect royalties.

True that .... then again...

Bruh, I wrote that. Why is his name on the cover of OA?
-Zeb Cook, in the '80s.


...actually, he can keep his name on the cover.
-Zeb Cook, today.

 

[Farbjoðr]

"if you are looking for a podcast that carefully examines the evolution of D&D's rules,"

If I was looking for something like this, is there something anyone could recommend?

Thanks

(I'm more interested in the story in When We Were..., which is really really good so far, but when that's finished I might be interested in moving on to the history of the game itself.)