Where are the angels?

[Dykstrav]

I think you are mish-mashing the eras in TSR history. Planetars and Solar were created in 1e, BEFORE the politically paranoid TSR of the early 2e era.

Yeah, you're right. Check out the 1E Monster Manual II, they have at least the planetar as I recall, and I believe the solar as well. The 1E Manual of the Planes also discussed how good critters fit into the core cosmology. In 3E, angels are a subtype of good outsiders.

Of course, the official WotC treatment (so far) on angels and such like is best represented by Book of Exalted Deeds.

The 2E "celestial/baatezu/tanar'ri" thing was one of the dumbest things TSR ever did in my opinion. In the 80's, D&D was accused of being a front for occult indoctrination and devil-worship (among other things) because it had demons, devils, dragons, pagan gods, magic and the like. So in an effort to appease people who believed this (who didn't play D&D, nor did anyone who cared about what such people thought), they tried to tone down 2E. Bluntly open references to demons and the like were quietly sanitized, the planes were renamed (Baator instead of the Nine Hells, Grey Wastes instead of Hades, et cetera), and the overall game was kinda designed with a 'PG-13' tone in mind. Of course, most of the serious gamers ignored this stuff and continued to call demons demons. 3E retconned this by explaining that baatezu and tanar'ri were types of devils and demons and combining the old and new plane names ("Nine Descending Hells of Baator," for example). But the renamed planes have seemed to stick in some places. We still have Carceri instead of Tartarus and Arbora instead of Olympus, for example.

 

[Shemeska]

Yeah, you're right. Check out the 1E Monster Manual II, they have at least the planetar as I recall, and I believe the solar as well. The 1E Manual of the Planes also discussed how good critters fit into the core cosmology. In 3E, angels are a subtype of good outsiders.

1e had Planetars, Solars, and some types of Devas. They were not really described as a common, cohesive group however. 2e did that by detailed them all as Aasimon, direct servitors of specific deities rather than being servitors of the abstract alignments like Archons/Guardinals/Eladrin. 3e renamed Aasimon as Angels, but otherwise left everything virtually intact (or more often, unchanged by default since they didn't go into as much detail).

The 2E "celestial/baatezu/tanar'ri" thing was one of the dumbest things TSR ever did in my opinion. In the 80's, D&D was accused of being a front for occult indoctrination and devil-worship (among other things) because it had demons, devils, dragons, pagan gods, magic and the like. So in an effort to appease people who believed this (who didn't play D&D, nor did anyone who cared about what such people thought), they tried to tone down 2E. Bluntly open references to demons and the like were quietly sanitized, the planes were renamed (Baator instead of the Nine Hells, Grey Wastes instead of Hades, et cetera), and the overall game was kinda designed with a 'PG-13' tone in mind.

After that initial period though, some of the later 2e planar material is incredibly dark (more so than really anything that was been made before or even after).

3E retconned this by explaining that baatezu and tanar'ri were types of devils and demons

2e did that long before 3e came along. Baatezu and Tanar'ri were just the major 'race' of fiends in their respective planes, but there were others who had a different particular outlook on their alignment, or a different origin, etc.

But the renamed planes have seemed to stick in some places. We still have Carceri instead of Tartarus and Arbora instead of Olympus, for example.

The names (perhaps with the except of Ysgard) are now less specific to particular mythologies. Because while much of the Elven pantheon and the Olympian pantheon reside in Arborea, it'd shaft the elves to have the entire plane named Olympus. Same to a lesser extent with Tartarus/Carceri, Hades/Gray Waste (especially given that the plane monstrously predates the Greek pantheon in D&D history). But at least we no longer have 'The Happy Hunting Grounds'.

 

[Dykstrav]

Thanks for the info. I kinda zoned out on new products in the late TSR days. I didn't buy a D&D book from 1996 until 3E came out in 2000. I did end up getting my hand on a copy of Guide to Hell, which was a surprisingly good 2E sourcebook. It was very engaging even if the content was sparse.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I always referred to solars, planetars, and devas as angels. Sometimes they looked like those pictured in the books, and sometimes they looked more like classic angels.
In my games, they behaved as exalted beings (before the BOED came out, even.)

Nobody ever played a PC angel in any of my games. They simply could not meet the roleplaying requirements. Likewise, I have never played a PC angel ... but the greatest dream of one of my good characters is to become an angel after his death.

You know what the first thing was, that was ever asked of any angel in the games I ran? This happened every time:
WHY AREN'T YOU DOWN HERE FIXING EVERYTHING AND SAVING EVERYONE? WELL? WELL?!!!

 

[arntof]

Same to a lesser extent with Tartarus/Carceri, Hades/Gray Waste (especially given that the plane monstrously predates the Greek pantheon in D&D history). But at least we no longer have 'The Happy Hunting Grounds'.

I just wondered what this first sentence means? And, secondly, I found the Happy Hunting Grounds far more interesting than the Beastlands.

 

[Prince of Happiness]

I just wondered what this first sentence means? And, secondly, I found the Happy Hunting Grounds far more interesting than the Beastlands.

I like The Happy Hunting Grounds as well. Native American lore and all that.

 

[Shemeska]

I just wondered what this first sentence means?

That the 1e name for those planes was too heavily reflective of only the Greek pantheon, while the planes themselves weren't, in any way, exclusive to those gods. So the name changes make a bit of sense, being more inclusive now and reflecting the nature of the plane, rather than just being named after a single pantheon that happens to live there.

 

[Huw]

or might be as harmless as Santa Claus, who originally was none other than Thor, except Thor or Thror's sleigh was pulled by magic goats. I read somewhere that there was a local deity near Persia named Shaitan, btw.

I believe Father Christmas was originally Odin, though he's more likely several different Norse and Finnic deities as well as St. Nicholas.

Also, Shaitan (Satan) - meaning adversary - has always been the big bad guy, applied to the Arabic Iblis as well as the various forms of the devil. The Persians did have deva, but they were demons (the D&D deva are taken from Indian mythology).

 

[Baron Opal]

You know what the first thing was, that was ever asked of any angel in the games I ran? This happened every time:
WHY AREN'T YOU DOWN HERE FIXING EVERYTHING AND SAVING EVERYONE? WELL? WELL?!!!

Me too. I replyed "We're keeping a bigger threat off your back."

That prompted about an hour of discussion as to what was scarier than a Tiamat - Demogorgon alliance of fiends invading the prime, let me tell you.

 

[GreatLemur]

I believe Father Christmas was originally Odin, though he's more likely several different Norse and Finnic deities as well as St. Nicholas.

Man, we could go all day on the anthropology of Santa Claus. The most persuasive explanation I've heard connected him to Pan and Cernunnos and various other fertility-oriented "wild, hairy man" concepts (although Pan is from a little too far south, I'd think). At any rate, it's pretty clear he evolved out of a whole mess of semi-related European Winter Solstice traditions that pre-date Christianity's arrival in the region.