D&D 5E Where are the options?

[CapnZapp]

I find that most "options" in the form of prestige classes or sub-classes or kits or whatever any given edition classifies them as are pretty pointless. I'd go so far as to say that many folks only want more options so that their choices seem better by comparison.

I mean, I've been playing since first edition when I was a kid, and began playing pretty seriously with 2E, and my group has consisted of about 15 or so people, 10 of which played for several years, and 5 of which were more limited. I've seen dozens upon dozens of player characters across many editions and even some other systems, and I can honestly say that most of the options are pretty crappy. There are a handful of good options that build upon the core classes, and the rest is pointless.

I had all the 2E Complete Handbooks. Each of them presented about 10 kits for the given class. There were maybe 2 or 3 good choices, 1 or 2 decent ones, and the other half of the kits were garbage.

Same thing with 3E. Some of the prestige classes had a strong thematic idea...like the assassin. But in play, the class sucked. Others were more suited to NPCs, like the Lore Master. Only a few prestige classes were worthwhile....the Archmage springs to mind, as does the Shadow Dancer (whose abilities were cool, but whose fluff was lousy).

I wouldn't mind if they added a couple of subclasses to each class, provided there was a concept worth examining. I don't want them to create subclasses just to do so. Which is what I think a strong majority of the options are...filler to make sure a splat book seems to have enough content to warrant the purchase.

Cue my proposal..!

Instead of expanding the game into more and more obscure archetypes, why not step back and critically examine the ones we've already got! [emoji4]

 

[CapnZapp]

I tend to be of the mind that the PHB has a lot of what you might expect from eventual splat of other editions already in it. Because of the subclass system, you have quite a few flavors of each class. Things like the Eldritch Knight and the Arcane Trickster haven't really been in the core books before. I feel like a lot of the customization you'd have to wait a little bit for is already there. Between the subclasses, the feats, the backgrounds, the subraces, it's got a lot of options going for it right out of the gate.

Add in the Elemental stuff and the SCAG stuff, and I really don't think we're in an option drought at this point, a little less than 2 years out.

This is what I think.

When you get a body of options in your lap (like the PHB of any edition) you do a careful analysis of what's there and what you want.

(Careful being a relative term; yes, I know some people are much less minmaxian than others)

And for your second and perhaps third character, you revisit that body of options. But to a lesser degree. Each of us gets a set of notions which get hard to change. Simply put, when you find a groove, you stick to it.

If you then get a new body of options (say, a splatbook), it's all fresh. You eagerly (again, relatively speaking) read through the new options, comparing, turning them inside out, the works.

But you tend to not do that with all the options back in the first body of options that you perhaps carelessly threw aside. Or simply never got to checking out because all the other cool stuff.

TL; DR: the fact that the PHB contains more options than ever doesn't mean 1) our capacity to absorb options has increased, or 2) our want for ever-fresh new content will subside

In other words, for a segment of the customer base, cramming the PHB so chock-full of options is a bit of waste. Since you see the good stuff and the bad stuff (which can differ from gamer to gamer) but not all the stuff.

Had they held back some of it, they could have had ready to go material for at least one crunchy delight to have been released by now.

Your examples, Eldritch Knight and the Arcane Trickster, are interesting in another way. The decision to include these two subclasses in the PHB is probably behind much of why the edition is accused of being too magical. For the first time, playing a fighter and rogue with actual spells is core. This would neatly have been avoided if these two were held back.

(I do realize that Wotc was scared shitless 5E would be another flop so I'm not really unsure why this particular edition got such a options-rich PHB)

 

[EzekielRaiden]

5E already features many optuions including multi-classing, feats, and magic items. The DMG contains a whole lot more rules options to try. I think the game is healthier and more approachable to newer players now than it has ever been since the days of the original red box.

The existing game, with the freely accessible basic rules online, can be picked up and played by those with a casual interest. Those that play and want to learn more can be get the core books and have everything they need for years of play. Imagine being a new player and realizing that there are 15+ volumes of rules bloat. The new model of fewer rules is less intimidating and more welcoming. I have been running and playing 5E games since release and haven't even started to use all of the available rules & options.

The best thing to come of this is the reminder WOTC has sent to players everywhere that making additional stuff for your own games is a great thing and to embrace that creative freedom. Who knows what you want in your own game better than you? Make what you like and have it work like you want. It doesn't get any better than that.

All around you.

Good to see that my prediction--that the Standard 5th Edition Response for advice/help threads will show up on the first page--continues to hold true. *sigh* Do either of you realize how useless this answer is? "Make up whatever you want!" isn't helpful when someone is looking for help on WHAT to make up or HOW to do it, still less for those who, for whatever reason, lack the time/interest/energy to make their own things and would like to make use of "vetted" things.

As was previously mentioned, I want to reiterate: they are supporting it with the DM's Guild. This allows them to use limited in-house personnel for game design, but allowing people like you to get want you're looking for. If, however, you're expecting "official WotC" support, it's going to be a VERY slow release (as they've shown so far).

If that is unacceptable for you, then 5E is probably not for you. There is nothing wrong with playing an older edition of D&D (especially if you incorporate aspects you like from 5E and other editions), or even playing a non-D&D RPG. There are a lot of great products out there, most notably Pathfinder. Good luck and have fun!

This, however, is a good answer because of the second paragraph. "DM's Guild is meant to replace official support. If you don't like unofficial support, and aren't happy with the rate of publication, 5e may not be the game for you." Which, of course, sucks if you LIKE 5e, but better to face the (potential) fact that it is never going to do what you want it to do than to wait for something that won't happen, frustrated all the while.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

"Make up whatever you want!" isn't helpful when someone is looking for help on WHAT to make up

Of course it isn't... but then, there really isn't anything else to say that is more helpful either.

If you don't know what you want to make up, but you want to make up something, you are in a state like that which some folks get into and someone, say their mother as an example, might point out they are in a different situation than the one they think, along the lines of:

"You're not hungry. You're bored."

If you can't tell me what you want to make up - you're not not hungry for more game material, you're just bored. Better to not waste your time frustrating yourself, and others, while trying to make up something you can't even say what is and do anything else. At the very least, look through what game materials there already are until you finally have what you want to make up come to mind.

...or HOW to do it...

Show me someone asking how to make up a specific thing they want made up that isn't given advice how to go about making up that thing. If such a circumstance has happened, I'll gladly jump in and rectify the situation by explaining either how I would make up said thing for myself, or what it is that already exists and I now about which covers the desired thing.

...still less for those who, for whatever reason, lack the time/interest/energy to make their own things and would like to make use of "vetted" things.

Some people are impossible to please. I find it is common that people that are impossible to please use the excuses that you've mentioned here.

And I don't think I'll ever quite understand why it is that people immediately dismiss "some guy on the internet made this" and insist that only professional or "official" products are worth even taking a look at - it's like saying that because the cook at the local diner does the job for a living that you shouldn't even bother trying the food at your neighbor's backyard barbecue. The only person that can judge how well things fit your particular preferences is you - not whatever company happens to be the "official" product line.

 

[Valador]

I WISH I had the amount of free time to play D&D to where I would run out of options... Seems like you'd get to play D&D all day, every day for that to happen...

I'm glad there's not a lot of splat books. Splat books cater to whiners and entitled children who cry the loudest out of the fans. "Omg my uber ninja super anime inspired class isn't in the game, wtf!!!!" Or the lazy DM's who need everything handed to them in order for them to "create" something. I see a lot of DM's in the D&D Facebook group post how WOTC needs to put out more books so they can "create their campaign". There's more than enough in the PHB+DMG+MM for someone to create a great campaign. You're not creating anything if someone else has to provide everything for you.

D&D does not need to go down the Pathfinder road where the game becomes solely "roll" playing and mathematics. People need to unchain themselves from this concept of NEEDING more and more crap to play the game. I mean seriously... who the hell needs an NPC Codex book... Some companies will just churn out an expensive book for ANY little thing they can and suckers will gobble it up...

 

[EzekielRaiden]

And I don't think I'll ever quite understand why it is that people immediately dismiss "some guy on the internet made this" and insist that only professional or "official" products are worth even taking a look at - it's like saying that because the cook at the local diner does the job for a living that you shouldn't even bother trying the food at your neighbor's backyard barbecue. The only person that can judge how well things fit your particular preferences is you - not whatever company happens to be the "official" product line.

Having spent the past ~year or so actually building up a set of recipes and refining my cooking techniques? I can completely understand it. One of the most surprising things I've learned over the past year: my parents never actually learned how to cook. They learned how to do a few rote recipes, some wrongly, and they both do things that completely fail to capitalize on the best aspects of the food they cook. They're great at improvising a simple meal from ingredients on hand, which made for many a good dinner when I was a child, but beyond that, they're no better cooks than I am (and, at this point, possibly worse) despite having three or four decades more practice. I *don't* expect most people to know how to cook, anymore. If you're really lucky, you'll have a friend whose mom is a trained chef or something (I had a friend like that growing up)--but that's not going to be most people.

Beyond that, though? The food analogy is a bit weak because if you try your neighbor's barbecue, most of the time the worst that happens is you'll dislike it--the risk of food-borne illness is very low. But with D&D stuff, the equivalent of food-borne illness--a nasty, unpleasant surprise that crops up long after consumption--is, from my perusal of offerings made in 3e, dramatically higher. Food assaults the senses, and you can usually see, or smell, if it has a problem. Mechanics don't, not in the least.

Mechanics are, to one degree or another, a kind of math. You can't see the color of math, smell it, taste a small bite; its down-the-line effects are often invisible even to true experts. You don't trust your neighbor's eyeballing to handle calculating the amount of wood and drywall you'll need for turning your back porch into a walled sunroom, nor with estimating the cost of installing a swimming pool. Your neighbor may be a fantastically nice person, may even be very skilled at math, but that doesn't equate to a thorough understanding of its applications in whatever field you need it.

(There's also the whole "don't be rude to your neighbors" thing that doesn't at all apply, but I figure I've given enough reason why I don't think the analogy is actually a useful argument here.)

 

[CapnZapp]

Some people are impossible to please.

Why make it so difficult?

It's far from impossible to please these people, just restart the bloat bandwagon.

There really is nothing else to say. These people want something WotC isn't prepared to give them. You prefer the new direction.

Full stop. Why argue?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Why make it so difficult?

It's far from impossible to please these people, just restart the bloat bandwagon.

There really is nothing else to say. These people want something WotC isn't prepared to give them. You prefer the new direction.

Full stop. Why argue?

How else does one demonstrate that one's own way of doing things is clearly superior?

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Having spent the past ~year or so actually building up a set of recipes and refining my cooking techniques? I can completely understand it. One of the most surprising things I've learned over the past year: my parents never actually learned how to cook. They learned how to do a few rote recipes, some wrongly, and they both do things that completely fail to capitalize on the best aspects of the food they cook. They're great at improvising a simple meal from ingredients on hand, which made for many a good dinner when I was a child, but beyond that, they're no better cooks than I am (and, at this point, possibly worse) despite having three or four decades more practice. I *don't* expect most people to know how to cook, anymore. If you're really lucky, you'll have a friend whose mom is a trained chef or something (I had a friend like that growing up)--but that's not going to be most people.

Beyond that, though? The food analogy is a bit weak because if you try your neighbor's barbecue, most of the time the worst that happens is you'll dislike it--the risk of food-borne illness is very low. But with D&D stuff, the equivalent of food-borne illness--a nasty, unpleasant surprise that crops up long after consumption--is, from my perusal of offerings made in 3e, dramatically higher. Food assaults the senses, and you can usually see, or smell, if it has a problem. Mechanics don't, not in the least.

Mechanics are, to one degree or another, a kind of math. You can't see the color of math, smell it, taste a small bite; its down-the-line effects are often invisible even to true experts. You don't trust your neighbor's eyeballing to handle calculating the amount of wood and drywall you'll need for turning your back porch into a walled sunroom, nor with estimating the cost of installing a swimming pool. Your neighbor may be a fantastically nice person, may even be very skilled at math, but that doesn't equate to a thorough understanding of its applications in whatever field you need it.

(There's also the whole "don't be rude to your neighbors" thing that doesn't at all apply, but I figure I've given enough reason why I don't think the analogy is actually a useful argument here.)

Your own argument for why my analogy is weak is exactly the argument I was using to show its' strength - the people you originally expected to know how to cook because they've got so much practice at it (the official game developers) don't know anywhere near as much as you (some guy on the internet that is making stuff) know from spending a comparatively small time learning on the subject.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Your own argument for why my analogy is weak is exactly the argument I was using to show its' strength - the people you originally expected to know how to cook because they've got so much practice at it (the official game developers) don't know anywhere near as much as you (some guy on the internet that is making stuff) know from spending a comparatively small time learning on the subject.

Wonderfully slippery definition of "expert" we're using now. First the neighbor counted as a non-expert whom one should heed and hearken to, then one's parents count as experts in whom one placed totally inappropriate faith, despite being exactly goddamn equivalent. I mean, when compared to, say, somebody who has actually worked as a cook and/or been educated as one.