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Where do you see (or want) 5.0 to go?

I too love KM's idea. Although if we replaced "Dungeon" with "Adventure", I'd be even more happy.

Also agree with the notion said above of fewer bonuses. And while we're at it, fewer fiddly bits. Bonuses that are evaporating this round or the next and so many situational modifiers and conditions and class features and feats that are easily forgotten each round and hard to keep track of.
 

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The game will be made to play on the computer from Day 1, with a gametable, and a way to find groups online, and a way to set them up. WotC will sponsor online tournament play a la the RPGA, and will also develop adventures through this medium. It will still be possible to play on the tabletop, and there will still be "core books" printed, but "splat books" and modules might be mostly online supplements. The core books will be rarer, but bigger, collectors' items, and might come after the online versions (after the bugs have been mostly worked out).

How would they promote D&D then if their main medium is software? They will lose presence in FLGS, kids won't be playing it in school or libraries and other rpgs will step up to claim the pen-and-paper rpg throne.

Imagine promoting it to a newbie, you tell him D&D is played on the computer but can be played on real table if you want to. The first thing they will wonder is why not play an MMO? They will get experience, provided that future MMOs add more interactions which is the way forward. I rather have an MMO than adds human interaction than D&D with just online mode play.

And how about fluff books? Will everyone own an e-reader to read fluff by then? Seeing how lately boxsets are making a come back, it is the perfect way to get newbies into the hobby, not online where D&D competes directly with WoW itself.

The whole online D&D seems to cater to working adults with little time to game compared to kids who have tons of free time to meet up and hang out with friends. In 5 years if not now, kids main hobby are computer games and the main draw of tabletop rpgs is that they can switch off their computers or consoles and hang out with friends.
 
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If you consider 3.5 to be a real full-on edition (and since 3.0->3.5 was roughly on the same scale of changes as 1e->2e, you might), then TSR/WotC has basically alternated between major shakeups (1e, 3e, 4e) and revisions/cleanups (2e, 3.5e). Which suggests 5e is going to be a tweak/cleanup edition that's fairly compatible with 4e.
 

I hope you're not in the minority.

I'd like to see the best aspects of 3e (a variety of different classes with fundamentally different mechanics, free multiclassing and customization, a fully fleshed-out skill system) combined with simpler math and a magic system closer to 4e's power system. More options, less bookkeeping (yes I know it's a contradiction).

Here too. v3.5 had some good stuff, but the extra math is what made me not enjoy running it. 4e could do to have some more math taken out as well. Here's what I would hope for in my ideal 5e;

1) Keep the 'powers' format for Divine/Arcane classes, but use the Talent Tree setup from SAGA/d20 Modern for Martial Classes. Talent Trees might make more sense for Psychics too. I can't say for sure there, as I've never really been fond of any Psionic system in any edition of D&D.

1b) Within that setup, allow for multiclasing, but have a requirement to be met before you can start learning aspects of the class. Your fighter wants to learn some warlock stuff, cool. Get your arcane skill up to a specific amount, and use the skill successfully in a specific number of encounters.

2) Tie utility powers/talents to skills. Fix skill challenges. I avoid using them because they suck. They are the biggest disappointment I have with 4e. If they can't work, just swap it out for the extended skill test idea from World of Darkness. That works.

3) The math works without "+X" items. Magic items are magic because they have a property or do something unusual. Cut back on number of magic items distributed over levels, and scale them based on need (weapons/armor -> implements -> other ).

4) Cut back on the raw numbers. A +1/2 Level is too much. Maybe getting a +2 at Paragon, and another +3 at Epic tiers. Reduce the numbers of all things (monsters, powers, etc) accordingly. This would allow '_______ tier' monsters and items to be valid through the whole tier.

5) Finally kill the sacred cow of levels. Tied to above, kind of like in Savage Worlds, your XP total earned would be used to determine your tier, but you would spend earned XP on attributes/skills/powers as desired, but within the purview of your class(es). Buying stuff for your multiclasses would cost more than the stuff for your primary class.

6) No release till 2018. Start playtesting in 2015. Push it back if it is not ready.

That's what I hope for.
 
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If you do go for a game focused on adventure/dungeon-based resources, how would that work? It sounds like we're making a sort of narrative-gamist system, which will irk folks who like simulationism.

Theoretical:
The DM gets an adventure challenge budget, and the PCs get a plot agency budget. The Challenge budget works kind of like the XP-based encounter budget of 4e.

The DMG would explain, "There are two primary ways to approach adventure design -- as a game, or as a simulation. In gamist design, the PCs will almost always deal with situations they are equipped for and capable of defeating, though they will be challenged in the process. In simulationist design, the world has challenges of many different sorts, some of which will be easy or too hard for the PCs.

"In a gamist adventure, you'll want to use the suggested Adventure XP budget for your party's level. This will ensure a fair challenge for the group.

"In a simulationist adventure, first determine what the challenge is, then tally the XP value of that challenge. This will reveal the adventure's level. During the course of the game, you should provide strong clues to the players about how hard an adventure will be. The PCs can still choose to go on a difficult adventure, but with these rules you won't be surprised when the PCs are overwhelmed."

Sound good?


In 4e, encounters have a sort of inherent rising action because PCs have fewer HP than monsters, so early in a combat it can look like the monsters are winning. But PCs get healing surges whereas monsters do not, so the tide will usually turn in the PCs' favor.

5e would probably have a mechanic similar to this for whole adventures. The DM gets the Adventure budget, while PCs get Plot Agency, which are like healing surges for plot.

Hm, say for a 1st level party of 5, the GM gets an Adventure Budget of 2000 XP. This represents the total resources aligned against the PCs during the course of the adventure - monsters, traps, and 'skill challenges' (or whatever supersedes them).

Likewise, the PCs get some sort of Plot Agency, say 300 per person, with Plot Surges that they can use to get more. These are a weird mix of physical health, social standing, luck, pluck, and cunning. They replace hit points and healing surges, and instead of representing how close to death you are, they represent how close to failure you are.

Every time a PC does something -- makes an attack, makes a check for a skill challenge, etc. -- he can just make the roll, or spend some of his Plot Agency to ensure a success. (And maybe when you design your PC, you could choose a few dramatic conventions, one of which you activate whenever you spend a Plot Surge -- allies show up, or you turn an enemy to your side, some environmental threat appears, you suddenly become a bad-ass, etc.)

The trick is balancing a GM's threats against the PC plot agency. The way a session would generally go, though, is that the PCs would be doing well, but they'd be slightly outmatched by the challenges. As they spend Plot Agency to stay alive, things get more and more dire, but then at just the right moment, the PCs start spending their Plot Surges, and they turn things around.

Of course, it's a tall order to take a system like that and make it feel real. You'd need to have attacks that can cause actual wounds with consequences; the PCs could spend Plot Agency to avoid those wounds, but still, they'd be aware of the threat. That way it would feel less like "the monster's claws bounce off you for 15 damage," and more like "the monster's claws graze you, but you avoid getting disemboweled by spending 15 PA."

That's probably too out there, though.
 

I'd like to see some influence by the OSR. A couple of examples would be less focus on killing monsters as the focus of the game, similar to what Kamikaze Midget suggested, but I'm not sure I'd do it the same way. I'd prefer measures like xp for treasure. There should be more support for "sandbox" campaigns and megadungeons, and less emphasis on more plotted adventures. Not that I'm advocating a complete elimination of "story-based" games, but 4e seems like it is focused on plotted adventures at the expense of other types. A more freeform skill system, and no "skill monkey" classes, everybody should be able to do adventuring stuff. Rules for hirelings and henchmen.

However this would not eliminate what many people like about 4e. It would not have descending armor class, or THAC0. Powers would be retained, though I hope that there is more diversity as to how exactly they work for each class. I like Vancian Wizards. How I might do Wizards is that they would have At-Wills, pretty much as they are now, but they'd be able to prepare they're other kind of powers each day, not just dailys.

I'd like to see the class name Fighter go bye-bye, since the current Fighter is not the generic fighting man of editions past. It has a specific role, it should have a name that reflects that, maybe call it a Vanguard or something.

The biggest change I would make are to reverse the flavor changes made in 4e. Greyhawk and Blackmoor should be the assumed settings, not Nerath. Now I have no problem the the concept of Points of Light. It fits my my idea of D&D quite well. But the specific changes to the settings are my problem. This is not the D&D I've loved for 10 years. So yeah go ahead and make Tieflings a core race, as long as they are the classic version. There's plenty of room for Dragonborn, I see them as an exotic race from far off lands anyway. Eladrin, however, should be immortals from the planes of Good and Chaos, if you want to have a Faerie race with the attributes of 4e's Eladrins though that's fine. Archons similarly are immortals from the planes of Good and Law. The Great Wheel should be the assumed planar organization. Succubi are demons, not devils, Yugoloths are not a subset of demons, Grazz't was never a devil, and demons are not all stupid bezerkers.

When I say that Greyhawk and Blackmoor are the assumed setting I do not mean that there should be setting details in the Core Books (at least not any more than there are now, it might be cool if say Hommlett, Saltmarsh or the Keep on the Borderlands took the place of Fallcrest. I'd be cool with a "Greyhawkized " Nentir Vale too though). I merely mean that the assumptions about the setting should come from the Greyhawk and Blackmoor settings instead of the new assumed setting. Instead of namedropping Bael Turath, namedrop the Great Kingdom of Aerdy, and stuff like that. The assumed setting would draw from both Blackmoor and Greyhawk, but if setting books were published for them, they be for the seperate, published versions. The Players Guides would probably be pretty small though, since all the races and other mechanical things from both settings would be in the core books hopefully. Infact I might emphasis elements of the settings that never got much attention, like the Sci-Fi elements. So you might even see robots in a Monster Manual or hi-tech devices in Adventurer's Vaults.

As for other settings the Forgotten Realms would be pre-Spellplague and perhaps even pre-Time of Troubles. It'd go back to basics, having fewer high level NPCs. Planescape would in some ways be the "assumed setting" for the planes, but It'd also get it's own setting books. Dragonlance would probably be published in an "adventure path" format, covering the original modules, but it'd have a player's guide as well. Ravenloft would have a two-fold approach, both the whole setting with the Demiplane of Dread, but it would also have a remake of the original module which could be incorporated into ongoing campaigns.
 

Oh, and publish all the standard races and classes players have come to know and love in the core books. "Everything is Core" so "everything is spread into X volumes of PHB" cannot be dropped fast enough.
 

I would like to see a version of the game that plays in fundamentally the same manner as OD&D, AD&D, BECMI, and D&D3. In other words, I would like the "Dungeons & Dragons" trademark to be applied to a roleplaying game that plays like the D&D game created by Gygax and Arneson.

That's not currently the case. I think it should be. So that's what I want to see out of 5th Edition.
 

Oh, and publish all the standard races and classes players have come to know and love in the core books. "Everything is Core" so "everything is spread into X volumes of PHB" cannot be dropped fast enough.
What are the "standard races and classes players have come to know and love"? I assure you, my list would probably be significantly different than yours (and probably way too long to ever fit in a single PHB).

As for the main topic, I would like to see a significant refinement/revision to the base concepts present in 4E. I am happy with the direction that 4E has taken D&D, but I will be the first to admit that it isn't perfect and could be improved upon.
 


Into the Woods

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