Where is the bugbear rage?

[eriktheguy]

So I made a bugbear for this one campaign, and was impressed by the race. I had a decent character with good damage output (rogue fighter hybrid with tempest technique and dual short swords). I even had a few defense/control powers to boot. Then I realized that I was 'oversized and could carry 'large shortswords' instead of short swords with no drawback.

I Googled ENworld for rage threads on this topic, but couldn't turn any up. Maybe I was overreacting. But to me the increased damage die sounds like a deal breaker. Is this balance not off? If I truly wanted to make an OP character I could probably do worse with a bugbear ranger...

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

From what I understand, oversized weapons aren't really meant for PC races.

If there were ever a writeup in Dragon for bugbears, they'd likely have that ability excised, rather like the minotaurs did.

Brad

 

[DracoSuave]

So I made a bugbear for this one campaign, and was impressed by the race. I had a decent character with good damage output (rogue fighter hybrid with tempest technique and dual short swords). I even had a few defense/control powers to boot. Then I realized that I was 'oversized and could carry 'large shortswords' instead of short swords with no drawback.

I Googled ENworld for rage threads on this topic, but couldn't turn any up. Maybe I was overreacting. But to me the increased damage die sounds like a deal breaker. Is this balance not off? If I truly wanted to make an OP character I could probably do worse with a bugbear ranger...

This is char op technology they discovered when the game came out.

MM races are not meant for player characters and have might have balance issues; compare the minotaur to the MM version.

Other races have gained -more-, like the Warforged.

But really 'I'd like to use a race that is explicitly noted might be unbalanced for PCs because it does a lot of damage' covered all the rage there needed to be.

 

[Rechan]

They ought to make racia spreads for the Goblin family. I want me some bugbear and hobgoblin love.

 

[Obryn]

There isn't any rage about them because they're not open to players, by default. The Monster Manual is pretty clear on this - the races aren't balanced with PCs in mind. Any DM who allows them is opening up a can of worms, and is warned about it ahead of time. If a DM came here to complain, he'd be told, "It's your fault for letting your player do this."

BTW, we've heard from Mike Mearls that any full PC writeup will remove oversized weapons from the race, just like happened with minotaurs.

-O

 

[bganon]

Yeah, you don't hear more about them since the DM has to "opt-in". But bugbears are indeed quite popular for munchkin damage-maxing. That said, the race really has little else going for it. The most similar player-race is Half-Orc, which gets Half-Orc Resilience and Swift Charge instead of the Oversized feature, which isn't really too awful a trade, and Furious Assault is better than Predatory Eye in absolutely every way.

Plus, racial feats are nice to have available.

 

[renau1g]

Yeah I'd call them a wash in relation to half-orcs. Sometimes I love me some goblinoids though and I like their sneakiness over the half-orc. The oversized really is only a huge deal when it interacts with brutal weapons, and the worst offender is the executioner's axe. Brutal 2 and change the damage die to 2d6 is a bad combo. Most weapons it's not game-breaking, changing 1d6 to 1d8 is what a .5 damage increase? Now with dual wielders it's a bit more problematic, but again with all the damage they do, it's not that big a difference. Overall I rank them lower than half-orcs for crunch, but fluff I put them higher.

You could do worse than a bugbear ranger, but you could do better too. Especially if going to pitfighter.

 

[Mort_Q]

changing 1d6 to 1d8 is what a .5 damage increase?

Average of +1; 1d6 averages 3.5 damage, 1d8 averages 4.5 damage.

 

[frankthedm]

If there were ever a writeup in Dragon for bugbears, they'd likely have that ability excised, rather like the minotaurs did.

MM races are not meant for player characters and have might have balance issues; compare the minotaur to the MM version.

There isn't any rage about them because they're not open to players, by default. The Monster Manual is pretty clear on this - the races aren't balanced with PCs in mind. Any DM who allows them is opening up a can of worms, and is warned about it ahead of time. If a DM came here to complain, he'd be told, "It's your fault for letting your player do this."

BTW, we've heard from Mike Mearls that any full PC writeup will remove oversized weapons from the race, just like happened with minotaurs.

The Monster Manual racial descriptions were never intended to be the canonical mechanics for those races. As the MM itself states, those stats are for DMs to create NPCs. You can use them as PCs, but a DM allows them at his own peril.

Thus, you'll see things like giving monsters oversized weapons and not giving them to official PC races. As others have pointed out, oversized weapons in PC hands are simply too good. It makes those races strictly better with weapons. If a PC race somehow gets it, expect it to be errata'd as soon as I see it.

Discussion and Poll here.
Word of Mearls: Official Player races will not get Oversized Weapons.

 

[renau1g]

Although it's funny that he says oversized in PC's hands are too good, but on the other hand there's the Epic Destiny Eternal Defender lets the PC use Oversized. Now it's not until 24th level, but it is there.