Which Class or classes do you feel are unbalanced-too powerful?

[Zimbel]

Fighter/Monk

His Hands do More Damage than any One Handed Weapon Can Do and with his increased number of Attacks he will do more Damage per round than any 2 handed weapon.

This all Ignores the fact that the Fighter would never even get a Chance... as the 120 Speed Monk can just Spring Attack Him from 60 feet away and be 60 feet away again after the Attack... The Fighter Has to Make a Charge Attack to get in Range... If he takes the Right Feats he can do this without provoking attack of opertunity.... otherwise it is a death sentance...

This also Ignores that the Monk is Far Better Grappler Than the Fighter is and Grappleing is a Touch Attack which will ignore the Fighter's Armor and Shield , Natural AC Bonuses... making the fighter very easy to grapple and hit and then the monk is better in that range... Fighter looses....

Or if the Monk Disarms the Fighter... The Fighter is in trouble .. unless he can also afford a couple spare +5 Weapons... which is unlikely given the money he already spent to compete with the monk.

Plus the Monks Extra Healling 40HP compensates for Slightly Higher +20 HP of the Fighter.

The Fighter would have to Spend more on DR that the Monk Gets for Free.

In short the Fighter gets at best a Dex of +3 and Armor and Shields... Armor and Shield are negated by touch attack grapple... Monk Gets Dex anything & Wis anything and +4 AC doesn't loose them against touch attacks... Monk Has at this point same to Hit as Fighter... but more attacks... Monk gets more self healing at 40 HP than the Fighter gets extra HP at 20.... Monk is faster... Etc...etc...

I'm not convinced that you've encountered a competant fighter build; a LV 20 fighter with standard wealth should be doing far more on an average round than an unarmed monk with standard wealth. A base of 2d10 is nice, but it dosen't fully compensate for all those "extra 1d6/ 2d6" abilities that can be thrown onto the Fighter's primary weapon/weapons.

Spring attack is very nice. However, a smart fighter could either 1) use a bow. or 2) ready an action to attack.

I think that Grappling is one of a Monk's few saving graces. Unfortunately, the build you're describing (high Dex/Wis) isn't the basis for a good grappling monk (High Str, big). Note also that you /can/ build a good grappling fighter- for that matter, most 2-weapon fighters are very good grapplers.

I'm not convinced that disarm is a very good tactic against a high-level fighter. There's no reason why a Monk would be particuarly good at disarming a Fighter who's seen the tactic before- after all, the Fighter gets 11 bonus feats, as opposed to the Monk's 3. Now Sunder, on the other hand, combined with the LV 16 ability that allows you to ignore hardness below 20- that could be very nice (unless the Fighter's weapon has a hardness of 20+).

Healing is nice, but 40 hp at LV 20 is a drop in the bucket. Either character should be able to do more than 40 points of damage in a round, which makes that healing questionable within a combat. Outside of combat, it's a nice effect.

Why would the Fighter want DR 10/Magic (unless it's cheap)? At LV 20, a lot of opponents will pierce that without a problem. Were I a high-level fighter, I'd be more looking at AC and Displacement for defense. Heck, were I a Monk, I'd also be more looking at AC and Displacement for defense (although I'd be happy when the DR worked).

Why are your Fighters limited in their Dex? Have none of them seen Mithral Chain Shirts/or Breastplates? Roughly 1/2 the Fighters I've seen played have a higher Dex than Str.

Note that I'm not stating that either is weaker or stronger than the other... personally, I think that both are so much weaker than the major spellcasters (Cleric/Druid/Wizard/Sorcerer) at high levels that it's pretty much irrelevant for the primary point of this discussion.

 

[Nail]

If you go by the DM Guide for Buying Attribute Points ...

Yer all over th' map, bub. Let's try to nail you down a bit. Let's use 32 pt attribute buy, as in the DMG (p169), which is a "high-powered campaign". (Something tells me the campaign you play in is higher. ) For a monk, you'll need 4 good stats: Str, Dex, Wis, Con. Depending on your build, you might want a reasonable Int. Chr can be your dump stat.

With 32 pt-buy, you can get: 16, 14, 14, 14, 12, 8. (Why don't you post how you would distribute it, rather than doing all of that arm-waving?)

A good monk build doesn't neglect Str.....but you want a high AC monk, so I'll put the 16 in Dex as you are advocating:

Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Chr 8

Now, let's level him up to Mnk 10, to take advantage of that extra AC bonus. Add 2 (level bonus) to his Wis for the extra AC. And let's give him the wealth of a 10th lvl PC - 49,000gp. There's lots of options here, but let's give him:

• Belt of Str +4 (16,000gp)
• Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4,000gp)
• Headband of Wisdom +2 (4,000gp)
• Bracers of Armor +3 (9,000gp)
• Ring of Deflection +1 (2,000gp)
• Amulet of Natural Armor +2 (8,000gp)
• Cloak of Protection +2 (4,000gp)
• Misc potions and odds-and-ends (2,000gp)

As I look at this guy, I see an AC of 26. [10 + 4(Dex) + 4(Wis) + 2(Mnk) +3(Armor) + 2 (Nat) +1 (Deflect)]

That's not bad....until you realize that the NPC Ftr in the DMG has an AC of only 2 less (24), and has worse stats and far less equipment wealth.....

It's time to put yer money where your mouth is, IamIan.

 

[Storm Raven]

I'm not convinced that disarm is a very good tactic against a high-level fighter. There's no reason why a Monk would be particuarly good at disarming a Fighter who's seen the tactic before- after all, the Fighter gets 11 bonus feats, as opposed to the Monk's 3. Now Sunder, on the other hand, combined with the LV 16 ability that allows you to ignore hardness below 20- that could be very nice (unless the Fighter's weapon has a hardness of 20+).

Well, that and the fact that a disarm attempt is an opposed roll, and the fighter starts things off with a higher BAB giving him an advantage in disarm attempts right off the bat. Plus, the monk's unarmed attack is a light weapon, while the fighter is frequently going to be using a one-handed or two-handed weapon, giving the fighter another advantage.

I don't see a monk trying to disarm a straight fighter as being anything other than a poor tactical choice for the vast majority of monks against most fighters.

 

[Zimbel]

I don't see a monk trying to disarm a straight fighter as being anything other than a poor tactical choice for the vast majority of monks against most fighters.

Thanks for the clarification; I was reciting from (an apparently poor) memory.

 

[IamIan]

Well maybe it wont, but Divine Power will.

Spelling???? a Divine Power item is only worth 64,000 GP.... and you are talking about Lv20 Characters... this is nothing.... the Monk will have the same thing or simular... the cleric will not have better base attack and will have 2 fewer attacks per round.... he will not have better attack vs grapple when the monk negates his armor, shield bonueses... Monk will be faster and have better over all saves... as none of his are bad like the reflex of the cleric.

my point is, the Monk does have anti-magic defenses which would be useful in fightning a Cleric. Although those defenses are not 100%, and considering some of the things the Cleric has access to, not to mention the sheer number of spell slots, you shouldnt totally discount their magic either

I am not total dicounting them... They are what make the cleric a mutli-tasker... and useful to a lesser degree but in more situations... but that doesn't make the class stronger... preventing it from specializing makes it weaker.

The Monk can multi-task but the strength of the class is that is can be specialized in several different ways and be very good at them.

Or the Cleric can simply have used Air Walk to be out of the Monk's reach.

sorry that can't save you either.... abundant step give monk demension door and once he is grappling the cleric the cleric will lose it is only a mater of time.

However, this thread is not primarily about one on one, one class versus another issues. Its about overall class balance.
And the growing opinion seems to be that the Monk is a little under par, and the Cleric a bit above.

yes this is the general opinion.. I disagree with it .. I have reasons for disagreeing as I have stated and I have reasons for why I think the reasons you have given don't compensate which I have given.... I say Monk is too powerful ... you say it isn't... I say Cleric is under powered you say it is over powered.... We disagree.... you give your reasons I give mine.

The Poll asked to give reasons... so I did.... don't want reasons for things... dont' ask.

Likewise the Cleric lacks any real overall weakness (physically durable, good saves, and spells to protect against just about anything), and still has considerable offensive and utility power.

yes... the Cleric is a Good Multi-Tasker... exxcellent at only Healing... the rest are compromises... less than best at everything but healing.... Specialization has power to it and so does Multi-Tasking.... But I fault the Cleric Class for the required Multi-Tasking... and I credit the Monk for being able to Multi-Task but also has great ability to Specialize in several areas too.

 

[Merlion]

IAmIan: you've stated your opinions...ignored various facts...and tried to back up your opinions with comparisons involving things that dont exist.


I am not going to be making any further responses to your posts. I just ask that you stay on topic...these threads are not about the validity of roleplaying restrictions or certain roleplaying styles, they are about mechanical class balance.

 

[Zimbel]

Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Chr 8

Now, let's level him up to Mnk 10, to take advantage of that extra AC bonus. Add 2 (level bonus) to his Wis for the extra AC. And let's give him the wealth of a 10th lvl PC - 49,000gp. There's lots of options here, but let's give him:

• Belt of Str +4 (16,000gp)
• Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4,000gp)
• Headband of Wisdom +2 (4,000gp)
• Bracers of Armor +3 (9,000gp)
• Ring of Deflection +1 (2,000gp)
• Amulet of Natural Armor +2 (8,000gp)
• Cloak of Protection +2 (4,000gp)
• Misc potions and odds-and-ends (2,000gp)

As I look at this guy, I see an AC of 26. [10 + 4(Dex) + 4(Wis) + 2(Mnk) +3(Armor) + 2 (Nat) +1 (Deflect)]

That's not bad....until you realize that the NPC Ftr in the DMG has an AC of only 2 less (24), and has worse stats and far less equipment wealth.....

It's time to put yer money where your mouth is, IamIan.

You could remove the belt (hey, we don't care about damage, or hitting, do we?), giving 16,000 to play with. 6,000 in the ring, 7,000 in the Bracers gives another +2 to AC. That gives him another 3,000 to sink in, say a Tumble item.

So that gives 28, which is rather good (although not wonderful) at LV 10. Add another +5 for always using maxed combat expertise gives us 33, which is pretty dang good at LV 10.

 

[Nail]

You could remove the belt (hey, we don't care about damage, or hitting, do we?), ....

Right.

Sure, you could get the Mnk AC up a bit farther....could you not do the same to the NPC Ftr build? Hey, if the guy doesn't have to hit anything, spend it all on AC!!! :\

 

[Zimbel]

sorry that can't save you either.... abundant step give monk demension door and once he is grappling the cleric the cleric will lose it is only a mater of time.

Abundant Step alone won't help against a flyer (although a fly item will, or possibly missle weapons). If you read the spell, your round ends at the end of the abundant step. You then (presumably) fall at 9.8 m/s^2, since you have no action with which to grapple the Cleric (in any case, you just used your standard action on abundant step). Now, as a LV 20 Monk, you won't take any damage, but falling dosen't help your situation. For that matter, the DM might even give the Cleric an AOO as you fall though their threat range.

My questions to you are: have you played any high-level monks? Have you seen one in play with at least 1 other PC?

 

[Zimbel]

Right.

Sure, you could get the Mnk AC up a bit farther....could you not do the same to the NPC Ftr build? Hey, if the guy doesn't have to hit anything, spend it all on AC!!! :\

Actually, I agree with his primary point - at very high levels.

Fundamentally, the following will differ between a high-AC Fighter and a High AC monk:
Armor: Fighter should be able to get at least +16 between armor and Dex, possibly more with a very high Dex. Of course, in the later case, their AC from this component is the same as a Monk's. Moving on...
Shield: A High-level fighter will have a +5-+7 bonus from shield. A Monk is very unlikely to have a shield at all.
Monk's bonus: +4 to the monk.
Wis: A Monk gains their Wis bonus to AC, realistically this maxes out at +9 (since any attribute points could have been put into Dex instead, that's a wash).

So Armor (+0) - Shield (-7) + monk's bonus (+4) + Wis (+9) gives a theoretical +6 AC advantage to the Monk.

Of course, to get this high of an AC, we're talking about at least a 16 Wis (starting), and the Monk spending far more on Wis than the Fighter does on the shield. We're also assuming that inherent bonuses are common enough that the Monk can max them out in two different stats (since otherwise, the Fighter could do the equivalent in Dex).