Which Class or classes do you feel are unbalanced-Underpowered

[IamIan]

When he can save some dozens of people per day by personally cast remove disease spells but he can spend the same amount of time to defeat an archfiend and save the life of millions of people.

And for some reason that dieing king or dieing beloved grandfather no feels sore about the clearic deciding who was worth his time??

Fees will not be the problem. But time could be the problem when only he can achieve bigger goodness.

Why don't you try tell that to some people with terminal illnesses that you could save them you have a cure for that cancer... but they are not worth your time... you are soo much more valueable than they are.

When he spends all of those wealth for buying or making gears to fight greater evil.

... Yeagh ... I know the governements money should go to help those disaster victims and to try to stop the depression... or fight that plague... but you know... we needs lots of tanks and we need lots of guns... to defend us from evils out there .... we aren't at war??... well it takes time to make these things and we have to be prepaired... sorry about that to all the people who died.... oh wait maybe that war didn't come and I just let those people die for no good reason.???

Because not all the gods demands it. And church is just a mundane organization. May not necessarily the most important nor effective things to spread his god's will.

Who do player clerics ever spread the word of thier god too??? they don't try to convince fellow party members becuase it would cause conflict and problems.... they don't try to convert the evil goblins they attack first and never ask questions and just kill and no one else sees thier deads other than an occasional bystandard which is rarely there as it would complicate battle if players had to worry abotu hostages.

Also Why would anyone follow or worship a god that only ends power to help those that they dont' see... few and fewer people woudl join the religion if anything the combat cleric will piss people off for killing thier loved ones and if he is a messanger of that god then they dont' want that they worship another god... and before long the god is loseing followers left and right before nobody even knows about the god anymore so than people today know about the Myth of Zues.

He may show the god's will by adventuring and defeating evil.

So Clerics on Defeat evil???? not blody likely .... every cleric I see never even tries to talk to the enemy... I had one attack a Nymph so he wouldn't have to save vs thier powers.... good my ass He had to change his alignment... how many people play in a group that the monster's get a trial or detect evgil is always cast to make sure that you are only killing of fighting evil???

However PCs are strong, they are not all-mighty. When he can't do all the good things, he must choose only some of them. That kind of poor commoners may or may not add good roleplaying aspect. But that does not mean all the powerful clerics must concentrate on saving commoners from sufferings.

Nooo... but when the clerics keep that money and equipment and don't help the commoners... the commoners stop careing about the clerics and if anything would resent them... Burn the Witch kind of thing....

Remember, PC clerics are supposed to be ADVENTURING CLERICS. Not some high priest governing a church nor a hermit type. They are supposed to be spreading gods's will by adventuring and fighting things they (and their god(s)) see as opponents. There will be pope of a church organization in D&D world, there will be city clergymen who is tending poorest people, their will be hermit type in somewhere. But typical PC clerics are not supposed to be that kind of people. They are ADVENTURERS!

True.... but during crusades when people went to fight "Evil" they still performed thier devine tasks.....

How many Players "Adventuring Clerics" have ever Prayed other than when the rules say they have to to get spells or for a spell to work???? they don't do it... how many use language like "thanks to Pelor for this victory"..... they dont' do that either... even if it was Pelor that gave the cleric the spell power they needed to win...

Are there no Holy Days the Clerics witness or honor???

Clerics seem to have no problem accepting people who say that thier God is Weak or Weaker than some other god ... none gets defensive... or protective of thier beleifs or god???

 

[Merlion]

And for some reason that dieing king or dieing beloved grandfather no feels sore about the clearic deciding who was worth his time??



Why don't you try tell that to some people with terminal illnesses that you could save them you have a cure for that cancer... but they are not worth your time... you are soo much more valueable than they are.



... Yeagh ... I know the governements money should go to help those disaster victims and to try to stop the depression... or fight that plague... but you know... we needs lots of tanks and we need lots of guns... to defend us from evils out there .... we aren't at war??... well it takes time to make these things and we have to be prepaired... sorry about that to all the people who died.... oh wait maybe that war didn't come and I just let those people die for no good reason.???



Who do player clerics ever spread the word of thier god too??? they don't try to convince fellow party members becuase it would cause conflict and problems.... they don't try to convert the evil goblins they attack first and never ask questions and just kill and no one else sees thier deads other than an occasional bystandard which is rarely there as it would complicate battle if players had to worry abotu hostages.

Also Why would anyone follow or worship a god that only ends power to help those that they dont' see... few and fewer people woudl join the religion if anything the combat cleric will piss people off for killing thier loved ones and if he is a messanger of that god then they dont' want that they worship another god... and before long the god is loseing followers left and right before nobody even knows about the god anymore so than people today know about the Myth of Zues.



So Clerics on Defeat evil???? not blody likely .... every cleric I see never even tries to talk to the enemy... I had one attack a Nymph so he wouldn't have to save vs thier powers.... good my ass He had to change his alignment... how many people play in a group that the monster's get a trial or detect evgil is always cast to make sure that you are only killing of fighting evil???



Nooo... but when the clerics keep that money and equipment and don't help the commoners... the commoners stop careing about the clerics and if anything would resent them... Burn the Witch kind of thing....



True.... but during crusades when people went to fight "Evil" they still performed thier devine tasks.....

How many Players "Adventuring Clerics" have ever Prayed other than when the rules say they have to to get spells or for a spell to work???? they don't do it... how many use language like "thanks to Pelor for this victory"..... they dont' do that either... even if it was Pelor that gave the cleric the spell power they needed to win...

Are there no Holy Days the Clerics witness or honor???

Clerics seem to have no problem accepting people who say that thier God is Weak or Weaker than some other god ... none gets defensive... or protective of thier beleifs or god???

This really has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread, and has no chance of doing anything but going around and around and around. Roeplaying stuff is 100% opinion and taste

 

[IamIan]

Ok....you've totally failed to address what I was talking about, and confirmed what I pretty much figured. Your idea is if a class isnt "the best' at something, they suck at it entirely and it shouldnt be taken into account. Which is not really accurate. Yes, D&D generally does reward specialization over generalization, because theres usualy not enough resources in a class or whatever to spread around like that.

I think i specificly wrote your point that the cleric is a multi-tasker and multi-taskers can be useful in more situations but not as good in any one of them....

Clerics have to Multi-Task... it is a requirement of the class... so they are a weaker fighter , etc... ... as such the class is not stronger... but more varied.

But they dont. And they cant. Because everyone roleplays differently. Thats why the rules of the mechanics need to be balanced *in and of themselves*. Because roleplay restrictions CANNOT mitigate mechanical benefits. Also they really should not.

If this were true than no class woudl have a Alignment Restriction... Becuase it is a role -playing in game concept of how the character acts... and should matter to the mechanics... but if the game is role-played... as in the rules followed then these alignment restrictions and the description of what a class is become important becuase they are what the class is.

Exactly what anti magic field item would this be? I know of no such item. And if it existed, it would be grossly overpowered.

Just following Item Creation Rules....

Even Forgetting the Item Creation Rules.. all together...

It is shown in examples for anti-magic stuff in the epic book....

Even Forgeting the Epic book too....

It is a Spell and far lower in level and power than many other spells that they put into items... such as Wish...

Wish is far more powerful than Anti-Magic Field and Wish Apears on several Magic Items as a Requirement of the Item.... Without Wish... Forget all the magic Books just for starters..

Also if anti-magic is such a ober powerful thing why isnt' it higher level spell???? becuase it isn't... Magic can be negated and it isn't even hard to do.

If you depend so much on Magic... You prove the Forsaker's Beleifs

 

[IamIan]

This really has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread, and has no chance of doing anything but going around and around and around. Roeplaying stuff is 100% opinion and taste

I wrote the cleric is a tad on the weak side... becuase of what a cleric is... and that he is only not weak becuase people dont' play a cleric they play a fighter spell caster called a cleric...

I also give the cleric marks for weakness due to his lack of ability to specalize... with the exception of healing... which I already said.

you then disagreed with me and gave me your reasons for it... I gave the reasons I don't agree with your reasons... etc.... etc...

The thread is about what class is a tad bit weak... I think the Cleric fits this bill... and can only break out of the weakest of all classes becuase people don't role-play it.... which as you seem to think role-playing has nothing to do with a class.... so we disagree... I think role-playing requirments of a class do matter... and most people just don't enforce them for the cleric.

 

[Nail]

I play a Clr presently. ....and frankly, I'm happy that some are going on about how Clrs are underpowered. It keeps the pressure off. Keep it up!

 

[ForceUser]

I wrote the cleric is a tad on the weak side... becuase of what a cleric is... and that he is only not weak becuase people dont' play a cleric they play a fighter spell caster called a cleric...

I find your argument to be without merit. Basically, you're saying that the cleric is weak because he must uphold the tenets of his (presumably, by your argument, good-aligned) religion. Not only is that assertion based on spurious assumptions that are not universal to D&D, it is factually at odds with how the good alignments are presented in the RAW.

Good is not nice, polite, well mannered, prudish, self-righteous, or naive, though good-aligned characters might be some of those things. Good is the awesome holy energy that radiates from the celestial planes and crushes evil. Good is selfless, just, hopeful, benevolent, and righteous.

Furthermore, by your argument, paladins should be even weaker than clerics because of their stricter alignment requirements, yet you don't mention them at all. Finally, your argument can't just apply to clerics, but to any pious character of any class who feels bound to uphold the tenets of her religion. Thus, a druid dedicated to Ehlonna, a rogue that is a fervent follower of Olidammara, and a fighter who reveres Kord are all weak, by your definition.

It seems as though what you really think is weak is faith. In the D&D context, where awesome holy powers hurl their proxies and followers against the minions of equally awesome unholy powers, you'd be wrong.

 

[Iku Rex]

Just following Item Creation Rules....

You haven't actually read the (new) magic item creation guidelines, have you? :\

 

[IamIan]

I find your argument to be without merit.

and you are entitled... but i dont' have to agree and i don't...

selfless does not keep the weapons and armor that help.. it gives them up to benifit others...

selfish... on the other hand does...

also by the reactions off sooo many people... it is very clear that the thread never should have asked for reasons why... becuase every time I give my reason why all I get is how this other thing is better or how I am wrong becuase the masses think something.... well... guess what.. I think the Cleric is Under powered as a class and isn't in play becuase people don't play a cleric they play a devine casting fighter.... and multi-taskedness fo clerics and others is usefulll but I think it is also a negative... the people on the cleric side seem to think the clerics are better then all other classes becuase they dont' completely suck at any one thing.... that is not true... they are useful in many situations but not as much in any one except healing.

 

[IamIan]

You haven't actually read the (new) magic item creation guidelines, have you? :\

yes I have actually and they changed very little about this aspect they changed more about ability bonouses and skill bonuses.

not that it matters...

Clerics are weak as kittens.... face it the other players are holding your hand and keeping you live.

 

[Dinkeldog]

1. Not if you are small size riding a medium-sized special mount. Or in a large enough area.

2. Extra Smiting is a good feat.

3. Did I mention Divine Grace?.....

"A good feat"? You're already small riding a medium-sized special mount (the gnome on a dire badger is my favorite), so you've invested your Lvl 1 and Lvl 3 feats into Mounted Combat and Ride-by Attack. Then Lvl 6 is Extra Smiting (which I don't have access to).

Paladins are decent defensive, but you're assuming a "large enough area," in order to have offensive capabilities more than once a day. For a offensive melee type, I'd put them after Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, and Rogue (in no particular order). Hence, I consider them underpowered.