Whizbang Dustyboots
100% that gnome
I think they can also make it clear that the goblins at the start are bandits who happen to be goblins, rather than all goblins being inherently untrustworthy SOBs.
D&D 5E Which D&D books currently scheduled for 2023 are you interested in?
- Thread starter Older Beholder
- Start date
So at this point I'm back to "probably going to buy them all eventually, because I know who I am" 
But the ones I voted for are "Keys from the Golden Vault' (love anthologies and love heists, so this one feels made for me), "Glory of the Giants" (because I love monster books), and "Planescape".
And with Planescape my interest is far more "what are they going to put into that box" curiosity than anything else. Is it an Outlands campaign? Sigil? An attempt to cover the entire Outer Planes in a 64 page book? I'm just really dang curious about what kind of product they think they can make with the name "Planescape" on it and who the target audience for it will be.
It's one of the settings I'd stay furthest from if I wasn't going to commit to doing multiple books. If I were in charge I'd do a "Tour of the Outer Planes" adventure book rather than a campaign setting because it would be easier to structure and not disappoint. So it's the one I'm most curious about.
But the ones I voted for are "Keys from the Golden Vault' (love anthologies and love heists, so this one feels made for me), "Glory of the Giants" (because I love monster books), and "Planescape".
And with Planescape my interest is far more "what are they going to put into that box" curiosity than anything else. Is it an Outlands campaign? Sigil? An attempt to cover the entire Outer Planes in a 64 page book? I'm just really dang curious about what kind of product they think they can make with the name "Planescape" on it and who the target audience for it will be.
It's one of the settings I'd stay furthest from if I wasn't going to commit to doing multiple books. If I were in charge I'd do a "Tour of the Outer Planes" adventure book rather than a campaign setting because it would be easier to structure and not disappoint. So it's the one I'm most curious about.
Loren the GM
Explorer
Except there was no actual heist in Dragon Heist, as written. For me personally, I'd still love an official book with actual heists in it.
Whizbang Dustyboots
100% that gnome
If/when it doesn't, there are a lot of great heist books from other publishers that are worth picking up.
If they drop the worthless DM screen they can up the page count.
Loren the GM
Explorer
I have several that are really good, as you say, but would still like to see official 5e WotC do it right.
Ondath
Hero
The funny thing about that one was that it had no heist in it! I'm hoping this one will - but I'm not counting on it.
cbwjm
Legend
It's an anthology of side quests, one of them has to be an actual heist.
Paul Farquhar
Legend
The 5e rules are not great for heists. They have hinted that the book contains some more heist-friendly rules. If those rules are actually good, then I might be interested. But until reviews are out, I have no idea if that is the case.
Normally, I quite like collections of short adventures that I can drop into an ongoing campaign, but I had already decided to take a break from DMing D&D (long before the OGL fiasco) so I don't really have a use for such a book at the moment.
Whizbang Dustyboots
100% that gnome
I don't know about that. Add a mechanic for doing Oceans 11-style flashbacks, have someone other than paladins in your heist team, and you're pretty good to go. I have a lot of rogues in the groups I DM for, and it's worked well for us.
What challenges are you encountering?
Loren the GM
Explorer
I've run heist encounters in 5e and they can go really well. I'd say at this point 5e doesn't have official heist rules, so it isn't exactly surprising that the system isn't great as stands for heists, unless the DM makes it happen. As it currently stands, without DM intervention, a heist often boils down to lots of planning that quickly goes WAY off the rails (often into large amounts of combat) ending the "heist" early and defaulting back to a form of dungeon crawling..
I'd love for the heist book to create some heist systems. Blades in the Dark could offer some guidance on how to handle a heist and make it more cinematic and player friendly. Plans, Loadouts, Flashbacks are great tools for a DM to use. I could see coupling that with something like the 4e Skill Challenge mechanic and creating a very nice, elegant 5e heist system.
Paul Farquhar
Legend
This. Your typical heist involves a complicated scheme requiring specialists who can execute their specific roles without chance of failure. D&D's swingy binary skill checks mean "the plan" is pretty much guaranteed to fail, and it degenerates into "kill the guards and take the treasure", AKA regular D&D.
cbwjm
Legend
Only if the DM asks for a roll, if the DM says "yes, that sounds good" then no roll needed. It'll depend a lot on the DM though I suppose.
Paul Farquhar
Legend
Under D&D 5e rules, most typical heist-related activates require a skill roll: picking locks, sneaking past guards, abseiling down walls, tricking someone into telling you the password, etc. If you aren't asking for a skill check, then you aren't using D&D 5e rules.
Indeed, if you just wave things through, you aren't really playing a game at all, you are just telling a story. In D&D, if you have unlucky rolls in combat, the party looses more hit points. But if a skill check fails, its plan over, roll for initiative. Most heist based games have a narrative equivalent of hit points. If you have unlucky rolls the roll succeeds, but at the cost of using up some kind of consumable resource.
cbwjm
Legend
Maybe that's what these heist games will have, some sort of resource. I still don't think a roll would be needed for everything in a heist though.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
This is correct.
I know may sound like a broken record here, but Logan Bonner's adventure from Dungeon #200, Blood Money, which was explicitly a heist, had a solution, which was, like "Preparation points" (I forget the exact term), which you got more of the better you prepared for the heist.
Indeed, which is what Logan Bonner did, before, I think, most heist games even existed.
You could use the "Preparation points" effectively as a "get of jail free" for bad rolls, or to assert fiction related to the heist - i.e. "Oh I remembered to bring this tool even though it's not on my character sheet" and so on.
So what I'd suggest/hope is that Keys to the Golden Vault introduces a very similar system to that. One where it adds precisely the resource you're describing that makes heist games able to work well even with an engine like D&D.
dave2008
Legend
Great idea - you should share over here: What are the coolest/most innovative mechanics D&D could take from other games?
Paul Farquhar
Legend
There are lots of ways you could houserule it. But haven't some from WotC means a standard set that everyone knows. Of course, if it's like the ship combat rules, then the official rules suck.
How many preparation points do you get? Is it based on class, level, gold expenditure or some sort of pre-heist quest completion? Are they individual, or a shared pool? Can I use preparation points in non-heist situations? Some serious game development skill needs to be applied in order to get a good well balanced generally applicable system. The idea on it's own isn't enough.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
Good thing WotC has a lot of money and employs a bunch of game developers/designers.
No-one is saying the idea is enough on its own, but it solves the problem you're proposing, it's been done before, and if you really want more details of how it worked in 4E, Dungeon #200 is online in the archive.
MNblockhead
A Title Much Cooler Than Anything on the Old Site
Ooh, I like that idea. Buying it on DM's Guild. I saw an old thread on EN World complaining that the adventure doesn't give enough guidance on using the new mechanic, but I'm hoping it is fleshed out enough that I can tweak it for use in my games.
