D&D 5E Which D&D books currently scheduled for 2023 are you interested in?

[Loren the GM]

The 5e rules are not great for heists. They have hinted that the book contains some more heist-friendly rules. If those rules are actually good, then I might be interested. But until reviews are out, I have no idea if that is the case.

I don't know about that. Add a mechanic for doing Oceans 11-style flashbacks, have someone other than paladins in your heist team, and you're pretty good to go. I have a lot of rogues in the groups I DM for, and it's worked well for us.

What challenges are you encountering?

I've run heist encounters in 5e and they can go really well. I'd say at this point 5e doesn't have official heist rules, so it isn't exactly surprising that the system isn't great as stands for heists, unless the DM makes it happen. As it currently stands, without DM intervention, a heist often boils down to lots of planning that quickly goes WAY off the rails (often into large amounts of combat) ending the "heist" early and defaulting back to a form of dungeon crawling..

I'd love for the heist book to create some heist systems. Blades in the Dark could offer some guidance on how to handle a heist and make it more cinematic and player friendly. Plans, Loadouts, Flashbacks are great tools for a DM to use. I could see coupling that with something like the 4e Skill Challenge mechanic and creating a very nice, elegant 5e heist system.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

As it currently stands, without DM intervention, a heist often boils down to lots of planning that quickly goes WAY off the rails (often into large amounts of combat) ending the "heist" early and defaulting back to a form of dungeon crawling..

This. Your typical heist involves a complicated scheme requiring specialists who can execute their specific roles without chance of failure. D&D's swingy binary skill checks mean "the plan" is pretty much guaranteed to fail, and it degenerates into "kill the guards and take the treasure", AKA regular D&D.

 

[cbwjm]

This. Your typical heist involves a complicated scheme requiring specialists who can execute their specific roles without chance of failure. D&D's swingy binary skill checks mean "the plan" is pretty much guaranteed to fail, and it degenerates into "kill the guards and take the treasure", AKA regular D&D.

Only if the DM asks for a roll, if the DM says "yes, that sounds good" then no roll needed. It'll depend a lot on the DM though I suppose.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Only if the DM asks for a roll, if the DM says "yes, that sounds good" then no roll needed. It'll depend a lot on the DM though I suppose.

Under D&D 5e rules, most typical heist-related activates require a skill roll: picking locks, sneaking past guards, abseiling down walls, tricking someone into telling you the password, etc. If you aren't asking for a skill check, then you aren't using D&D 5e rules.

Indeed, if you just wave things through, you aren't really playing a game at all, you are just telling a story. In D&D, if you have unlucky rolls in combat, the party looses more hit points. But if a skill check fails, its plan over, roll for initiative. Most heist based games have a narrative equivalent of hit points. If you have unlucky rolls the roll succeeds, but at the cost of using up some kind of consumable resource.

 

[cbwjm]

Under D&D 5e rules, most typical heist-related activates require a skill roll: picking locks, sneaking past guards, abseiling down walls, tricking someone into telling you the password, etc. If you aren't asking for a skill check, then you aren't using D&D 5e rules.

Indeed, if you just wave things through, you aren't really playing a game at all, you are just telling a story. In D&D, if you have unlucky rolls in combat, the party looses more hit points. But if a skill check fails, its plan over, roll for initiative. Most heist based games have a narrative equivalent of hit points. If you have unlucky rolls the roll succeeds, but at the cost of using up some kind of consumable resource.

Maybe that's what these heist games will have, some sort of resource. I still don't think a roll would be needed for everything in a heist though.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

This. Your typical heist involves a complicated scheme requiring specialists who can execute their specific roles without chance of failure. D&D's swingy binary skill checks mean "the plan" is pretty much guaranteed to fail, and it degenerates into "kill the guards and take the treasure", AKA regular D&D.

This is correct.

I know may sound like a broken record here, but Logan Bonner's adventure from Dungeon #200, Blood Money, which was explicitly a heist, had a solution, which was, like "Preparation points" (I forget the exact term), which you got more of the better you prepared for the heist.

Most heist based games have a narrative equivalent of hit points. If you have unlucky rolls the roll succeeds, but at the cost of using up some kind of consumable resource.

Indeed, which is what Logan Bonner did, before, I think, most heist games even existed.

You could use the "Preparation points" effectively as a "get of jail free" for bad rolls, or to assert fiction related to the heist - i.e. "Oh I remembered to bring this tool even though it's not on my character sheet" and so on.

So what I'd suggest/hope is that Keys to the Golden Vault introduces a very similar system to that. One where it adds precisely the resource you're describing that makes heist games able to work well even with an engine like D&D.

 

[dave2008]

This is correct.

I know may sound like a broken record here, but Logan Bonner's adventure from Dungeon #200, Blood Money, which was explicitly a heist, had a solution, which was, like "Preparation points" (I forget the exact term), which you got more of the better you prepared for the heist.

Indeed, which is what Logan Bonner did, before, I think, most heist games even existed.

You could use the "Preparation points" effectively as a "get of jail free" for bad rolls, or to assert fiction related to the heist - i.e. "Oh I remembered to bring this tool even though it's not on my character sheet" and so on.

So what I'd suggest/hope is that Keys to the Golden Vault introduces a very similar system to that. One where it adds precisely the resource you're describing that makes heist games able to work well even with an engine like D&D.

Great idea - you should share over here: What are the coolest/most innovative mechanics D&D could take from other games?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Great idea - you should share over here: What are the coolest/most innovative mechanics D&D could take from other games?

There are lots of ways you could houserule it. But haven't some from WotC means a standard set that everyone knows. Of course, if it's like the ship combat rules, then the official rules suck.

How many preparation points do you get? Is it based on class, level, gold expenditure or some sort of pre-heist quest completion? Are they individual, or a shared pool? Can I use preparation points in non-heist situations? Some serious game development skill needs to be applied in order to get a good well balanced generally applicable system. The idea on it's own isn't enough.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

How many preparation points do you get? Is it based on class, level, gold expenditure or some sort of pre-heist quest completion? Are they individual, or a shared pool? Can I use preparation points in non-heist situations? Some serious game development skill needs to be applied in order to get a good well balanced generally applicable system. The idea on it's own isn't enough.

Good thing WotC has a lot of money and employs a bunch of game developers/designers.

No-one is saying the idea is enough on its own, but it solves the problem you're proposing, it's been done before, and if you really want more details of how it worked in 4E, Dungeon #200 is online in the archive.

 

[MNblockhead]

This is correct.

I know may sound like a broken record here, but Logan Bonner's adventure from Dungeon #200, Blood Money, which was explicitly a heist, had a solution, which was, like "Preparation points" (I forget the exact term), which you got more of the better you prepared for the heist.

Indeed, which is what Logan Bonner did, before, I think, most heist games even existed.

You could use the "Preparation points" effectively as a "get of jail free" for bad rolls, or to assert fiction related to the heist - i.e. "Oh I remembered to bring this tool even though it's not on my character sheet" and so on.

So what I'd suggest/hope is that Keys to the Golden Vault introduces a very similar system to that. One where it adds precisely the resource you're describing that makes heist games able to work well even with an engine like D&D.

Ooh, I like that idea. Buying it on DM's Guild. I saw an old thread on EN World complaining that the adventure doesn't give enough guidance on using the new mechanic, but I'm hoping it is fleshed out enough that I can tweak it for use in my games.