D&D 5E Which Greyhawk?

I would prefer the Greyhawk as presented in World of Greyhawk, Greyhawk Adventures, and The City of Greyhawk. I didn't find Greyhawk Wars or From the Ashes particularly interesting. Most of my Greyhawk campaigns involve wandering the wildernesses, not mucking about with politics or economic strife. That's why I prefer Greyhawk to FR. I want vast untamed wilderness, and FR hasn't got any of that anymore.
 

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Dragonhelm

Knight of Solamnia
Greyhawk, in my opinion, needs to have its own identity so that it can stand out as a distinctive world from the Forgotten Realms or Mystara. It used to be thought of as the world of classic dungeons, but with Tales of the Yawning Portal, those dungeons can appear in any world.

What that difference needs to be, I don't know.
 

Jer

Legend
Supporter
One of those questions that I wonder about is this: If Greyhawk were to come back as a setting (even if only enabled for DMs Guild creators), which version of the setting would you want to see?

And, to some extent, my answer to that question is "none of them! I want to see mine!"

Yes. This is why I think any updated version of Greyhawk is essentially doomed.

Greyhawk as a published setting is an artifact of its time. The kind of fantasy it represents is a mid-70s aesthetic. Some folks like to say that the difference between Greyhawk and FR is that Greyhawk is "sword and sorcery" while FR is "high fantasy", but I think that's not quite right. Greyhawk has its share of Tolkien tropes and FR has its share of Howard inspired sword and sorcery tropes and you can do either high fantasy or sword and sorcery in either setting. It's more that Greyhawk as published is a very 1970s vision of fantasy, while the Realms as published are a very 1990s vision of fantasy (except for the grey box, which is a very 1980s vision of fantasy). Where Gygax threw together a world based on Howard and Lieber and Tolkein and Moorcock and other authors who published in the span from the 20s through the 70s, the authors who grew the Realms from Greenwood's original vision were all influenced not just by the authors that influenced Gygax, but also MANY other authors because the 60s/70s/80s were an explosion for fantasy. Authors like Eddings and Brooks and McCaffrey and LeGuin and later even Weis and Hickman and their Dragonlance books all influenced the people who grew the Realms from Greenwood's original vision, making it a more contemporary fantasy setting while Greyhawk sat untouched by the publishing schedule for the most part and didn't grow in that way.

It's been in the hands of players for a far longer span of time than it was actively being published by TSR/Wizards. And all of those players have their own vision of what Greyhawk is. The Realms had dedicated line editors and authors (like Greenwood and Salvatore) to define what the Realms were for players from the time it was first published until fairly recently (and still has Ed Greenwood somewhat acting as the Voice of God). Greyhawk was left without anyone in TSR/Wizards to set direction for it and so players were on their own. And each of them developed their own vision of what was important in the setting and what was to be ignored.

I actually shudder to think about how they might relaunch Greyhawk. If they consciously try to make it a setting with a 70s fantasy aesthetic it will likely come across as an exercise is retro-nostalgia with limited interest to the wider fantasy gaming population. And possibly of little interest to Greyhawk fans who might (possibly rightly) view it as the "cover band" version of the setting that is inferior to the original. If they don't consciously try to stick to the 70s aesthetic, then modern influences will definitely creep into the mix and provide a whole lot of fodder for people to angrily denounce it as "not Greyhawk".

I actually kind of think that Greyhawk might best be served by just putting the original works up on DM's Guild, putting out a 5e conversion guide, and then letting the fan community publish on DM's guild without Wizards actually trying to relaunch it themselves. Then the fan community can fight amongst themselves about what Greyhawk "is" without having Wizards to use as a punching bag. It just seems like the kind of exercise that will take up a lot of resources and nobody is going to be happy with the end result. (And they can devote that time/effort to updating settings like Dark Sun or Eberron - both of which have mixing older and contemporary influences together at the heart of the setting and so both are more amenable to adapting to current fantasy ides than Greyhawk would be. Or here's a dumb idea - maybe they could try launching a new fantasy setting to be "the" setting that reflects the contemporary fantasy ideas of this decade the way that Greyhawk was for the 70s, Dragonlance was for the 80s, the Realms were for the 90s and Eberron was for the aughts...).
 

Greg K

Legend
The following is my preference for a 5e Greyhawk. I want the original boxed set adjusted to take into account bits of lore (especially, culture lore) that Gygax revealed in Dragon. I want the focus setting focused on what Gygax's wrote and ignore later authors. Granted, NPCs would be updated into a current edition format. However, certain 5e subclasses and races (including some found in the PHB) would not be shoehorned in to a 5e Greyhawk.

As for the pantheon, the deities that appeared in his Dragon articles should be the primary deities and not replaced with those from Lakofka's Suel Pantheon from Dragon Magazine as was done with 3e (yes, I know Gygax approved the Suel pantheon's inclusion into the Greyhawk setting and created a spot in the setting to accommodate Lakofka's setting. However, as I stated earlier, I want the focus on what Gygax himself created). Deities introduced in later editions by other authors, again, would be ignored. My one exception to focusing solely upon what Gygax wrote would be looking to Greyhawk Adventures and Sean Reynolds' 3e Greyhawk articles to flesh out the information on the priests and priesthoods of the Gygax deities.
 

76512390ag12

First Post
I don't care that much but I think Greg is right. Republish it only as Gary wrote it in 96 pages and leave it to DM's Guild.

Sent from my SM-G901F using Tapatalk
 


Couldn't they go a multi-era approach, discussing the past and present of each nation. Assume 1e but have a paragraph or two for each updating to post-FRA?
 

I would prefer the Greyhawk as presented in World of Greyhawk, Greyhawk Adventures, and The City of Greyhawk. I didn't find Greyhawk Wars or From the Ashes particularly interesting. Most of my Greyhawk campaigns involve wandering the wildernesses, not mucking about with politics or economic strife. That's why I prefer Greyhawk to FR. I want vast untamed wilderness, and FR hasn't got any of that anymore.

Do you mean "untamed" or "undescribed"? Faerun has plenty of untamed wilderness, as a good amount of it (including most of the area described in SCAG) being city-states whose writs don't extend more than a few miles beyond their walls, with substantial wilderness areas between. The Flanaess, on the other hand, is mostly made up of large monarchies or other states with well-defined borders that more or less fill up the map. Granted, there are large areas of wilderness inside those borders, but in most cases you're still within the legal domain of the king/duke/demonic overlord that rules the state, as opposed to those wilderness areas between the city-states of the Forgotten Realms that are legally terra nullius...
 

Luz

Explorer
Greyhawk, in my opinion, needs to have its own identity so that it can stand out as a distinctive world from the Forgotten Realms or Mystara. It used to be thought of as the world of classic dungeons, but with Tales of the Yawning Portal, those dungeons can appear in any world.

My knowledge of Mystara is pretty limited, but it has always struck me as more monarchy/nobility focused than GH or the FR. I do think GH's identity, while somewhat muddled over the decades, still separates itself significantly from FR. While both include many of the same fantasy tropes (magic, elves, dwarves, gods, etc.), Greyhawk has a more bleak geographical and political landscape than FR. Good and evil have battered each other to a standstill, evil with the slight upper hand. So the world has a more dark, oppressive tone compared to FR's brighter, good-shall-prevail outlook. Of course, FR has its share of gloominess, just as GH has its beacons of hope and light, but the overall grim atmosphere of Greyhawk is what distinguishes it from FR.

Greyhawk as a published setting is an artifact of its time. The kind of fantasy it represents is a mid-70s aesthetic. Some folks like to say that the difference between Greyhawk and FR is that Greyhawk is "sword and sorcery" while FR is "high fantasy", but I think that's not quite right. Greyhawk has its share of Tolkien tropes and FR has its share of Howard inspired sword and sorcery tropes and you can do either high fantasy or sword and sorcery in either setting. It's more that Greyhawk as published is a very 1970s vision of fantasy, while the Realms as published are a very 1990s vision of fantasy (except for the grey box, which is a very 1980s vision of fantasy). Where Gygax threw together a world based on Howard and Lieber and Tolkein and Moorcock and other authors who published in the span from the 20s through the 70s, the authors who grew the Realms from Greenwood's original vision were all influenced not just by the authors that influenced Gygax, but also MANY other authors because the 60s/70s/80s were an explosion for fantasy. Authors like Eddings and Brooks and McCaffrey and LeGuin and later even Weis and Hickman and their Dragonlance books all influenced the people who grew the Realms from Greenwood's original vision, making it a more contemporary fantasy setting while Greyhawk sat untouched by the publishing schedule for the most part and didn't grow in that way.

I agree with most of this, but I don't think that's to Greyhawk's detriment. Its pulp fantasy-era roots define it as a setting and it isn't any more dated than reading Howard or Leiber or Moorcock today, and certainly no more (or less) dated than an 80s/90s vision of the FR. Both have very different but equally valid approaches on the fantasy genre.

It's been in the hands of players for a far longer span of time than it was actively being published by TSR/Wizards. And all of those players have their own vision of what Greyhawk is. The Realms had dedicated line editors and authors (like Greenwood and Salvatore) to define what the Realms were for players from the time it was first published until fairly recently (and still has Ed Greenwood somewhat acting as the Voice of God). Greyhawk was left without anyone in TSR/Wizards to set direction for it and so players were on their own. And each of them developed their own vision of what was important in the setting and what was to be ignored.

Only once 4th edition was released in 2008, but until that point Greyhawk was still very much a prominent presence to WotC and TSR before them. Sargent, Cook, and Moore all guided Greyhawk into the 3rd Edition era, where writers like Holian, Mona and Jacobs then carried the torch. That's a pretty respectable roster. Sure, some of the changes these authors brought created strife among GH fans, just as changes like the Spellplague was divisive for FR fans. Changes to the campaign setting are as inevitable as the schisms it creates, but that isn't something wholly exclusive to Greyhawk.
 

werecorpse

Adventurer
IMO Greyhawk could be presented with some similarity to The Great Pendragon Campaign. That presents the world in which one adventures over the course of a 80 year period and notes the metagame changes. All of it is subject to change by the players except for a very few things. The GM & players then interact with the story at whichever time they see fit and for however long they see fit.

The Great Greyhawk Campaign could start in 568 just as the forces of good are rallied for the Battle of Emridy Meadows then proceed through the next dozen years detailing potential events that stretch the forces of good and allow those of evil to fester, to interact with as the wild coast slavers, the temple of elemental evil, battling against Lolth & the Giants, traipsing into Iggwilvs hidden lairs etc. The second phase would be the rise of Iuz and the fall of the Great Kingdom lasting from 580 to about 590 and include a sketch out of potential interactions with the Greyhawk wars, the rise from the ashes etc. Phase three would be a post 590 world, a return to the temple of elemental evil etc.

In essence 568 baseworld plus a 25 year timeline with possible events and adventures and how the 568 world changes. Then make suggestions for the adventures so that they fit with the new canon ' let the DMs guild add material based on suggested times and place.
 

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