D&D 5E Which Greyhawk?

[Mercule]

I don't think any one "version" of Greyhawk could unite and recapture all the fans and create sufficient new ones. As far as which Greyhawk I prefer, it's the red-and-gold box. There's some OK material in the others, but they do way, way more harm than good. In the case of the LGG, it's actually too sparse.

What really draws people to Greyhawk, IME/IMO, is a combination of tone and openness. The Realms turn me off, in part, because it's hard to even shrug your shoulders without knocking over a canon. Gygax had a talent for having just enough story to inspire people, but not so much that it constrained people. I actually really like [MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION]'s idea about having the Realms be high canon and Greyhawk low canon and would love to see it tried.

I just realized that the closest I've seen to Gygax's "just enough" story and the obvious assumption/push to make the world your own is in how Eberron was done. That was, by my understanding, largely a product of Keith Baker's philosophy and is still evidenced in the way he talks about Eberron, today. I have no idea whether Keith has any desire, but I'd love to see if he could help drive a "right-sized" Greyhawk source book. He seems to like to do interesting/non-traditional settings, but restoring such a sacred setting might be enough of a challenge.

 

[Bacon Bits]

Er, other than virtually the entirety of the Sword Coast and the north, i.e. the bits they've focused on this edition?

Do you mean "untamed" or "undescribed"? Faerun has plenty of untamed wilderness, as a good amount of it (including most of the area described in SCAG) being city-states whose writs don't extend more than a few miles beyond their walls, with substantial wilderness areas between. The Flanaess, on the other hand, is mostly made up of large monarchies or other states with well-defined borders that more or less fill up the map. Granted, there are large areas of wilderness inside those borders, but in most cases you're still within the legal domain of the king/duke/demonic overlord that rules the state, as opposed to those wilderness areas between the city-states of the Forgotten Realms that are legally terra nullius...

The issue is that the population of FR is far too high, including the Sword Coast. Waterdeep has a population of 380,000. That would put it in the top 50 largest cities in the US today. It's about the size of Cleveland, Minneapolis, Tulsa, or New Orleans. Now, it takes about 1 acre of land to support 1 person for food for 1 year. That's 600 square miles of farmland that you need just to supply food for the people inside Waterdeep. By that measure, about 150-200 miles around Waterdeep should be nothing but farmland. Even if you halve it and say much of the food is from fisheries, you're pushing the bounds of reality. Those outlying cities are all 30,000+ people or so, and there's about a dozen of them. Pretty much the entirety of the Sword Coast should be farmland.

The cities in Greyhawk are, on the whole, much smaller. Greyhawk is one of the largest cities in the Flanaess, and it's 60,000 to 70,000, and it is surrounded by a miles and miles of farmland, with most communities being under 10,000.

 

[Arnwolf666]

1 acre of land to support 1 person for food for a year. BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Someone has not lived on a farm or not raised food. That's not even close.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

TL;DR - Just in case others haven't already linked to them...

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldbuild...ow_much_farmland_is_needed_to_support_a_city/

http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/blueroom/demog.htm

Those two sites are a godsend for DM's who want to inject more realistic civilizations and such. Another good resource is pretty much anything for Harn ( http://www.columbiagames.com/cgi-bin/query/harn/cfg/harnmaster.cfg ).

One more book I just picked up (well, PDF) just moments ago was HARP Folkways. I haven't really looked at it yet (as I said...moments, as in minutes), but the general reviews I saw on it seems to be at least highly positive. As my players just decided they wanted to play a more "meaty" game system for a change, they chose HARP last Sunday.

I'm off to read up on Folkways now!

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Demetrios1453]

The issue is that the population of FR is far too high, including the Sword Coast. Waterdeep has a population of 380,000. That would put it in the top 50 largest cities in the US today. It's about the size of Cleveland, Minneapolis, Tulsa, or New Orleans. Now, it takes about 1 acre of land to support 1 person for food for 1 year. That's 600 square miles of farmland that you need just to supply food for the people inside Waterdeep. By that measure, about 150-200 miles around Waterdeep should be nothing but farmland. Even if you halve it and say much of the food is from fisheries, you're pushing the bounds of reality. Those outlying cities are all 30,000+ people or so, and there's about a dozen of them. Pretty much the entirety of the Sword Coast should be farmland.

The cities in Greyhawk are, on the whole, much smaller. Greyhawk is one of the largest cities in the Flanaess, and it's 60,000 to 70,000, and it is surrounded by a miles and miles of farmland, with most communities being under 10,000.

In addition to what others have stated, you're also forgetting about magic increasing crop yields (and decreasing subsequent loss through spoilage) far above the medieval norm. It's stated that Goldenfields feeds a substantial percentage of Waterdeep's population just on its own. Beyond that, if other sources are still inadequate, Waterdeep could very well take a page from Rome's book and simply import grain from areas specifically described as agricultural regions, such as Amn or Tethyr.

And finally, the Sword Coast region is mostly wilderness simply because the setting itself tells us it is.

Sent from my VS987 using EN World mobile app

 

[Brandegoris]

Le Sigh....
This thread has made me wistful...
So many great memories as a kid in Greyhawk. I will always think its the best world ( Golarion is close for me, But not quite as cool).

The time I met Prince Melf Brightflame on the Borders of Celene. So awesome

 

[Bacon Bits]

In addition to what others have stated, you're also forgetting about magic increasing crop yields (and decreasing subsequent loss through spoilage) far above the medieval norm. It's stated that Goldenfields feeds a substantial percentage of Waterdeep's population just on its own. Beyond that, if other sources are still inadequate, Waterdeep could very well take a page from Rome's book and simply import grain from areas specifically described as agricultural regions, such as Amn or Tethyr.

And finally, the Sword Coast region is mostly wilderness simply because the setting itself tells us it is.

Sent from my VS987 using EN World mobile app

So it's a giant city with a massive -- and possibly magical -- infrastructure designed to support an absurdly large population... is in the middle of the wilderness because it says it is.

Rome was also the center of civilization in the west for hundreds of years. It was the seat of the Emperor and the Senate before that. Waterdeep is like 1850s San Francisco or Chicago, except randomly 10 times the size.

Sorry, no, it completely and totally breaks my suspension of disbelief.

 

[Brandegoris]

So it's a giant city with a massive -- and possibly magical -- infrastructure designed to support an absurdly large population... is in the middle of the wilderness because it says it is.

Rome was also the center of civilization in the west for hundreds of years. It was the seat of the Emperor and the Senate before that. Waterdeep is like 1850s San Francisco or Chicago, except randomly 10 times the size.

Sorry, no, it completely and totally breaks my suspension of disbelief.

Why? Of all the things that deserve disbelief that is what Breaks it for you? LOL
Not Dragon men, or UNDERMOUNTAIN ( The 850 Level dungeon that a dude made just for kicks), or Or The Enormous sandy desert that continuously grows , etc...

I Don't love Forgotten realms. I don't think it holds a candle to Greyhawk, But I don't find waterdeep that troubling

Also; When you are the biggest Maritime power in the region for Hundreds of Miles you would be surprised how much food you can fish up out of the ocean

 

[Demetrios1453]

So it's a giant city with a massive -- and possibly magical -- infrastructure designed to support an absurdly large population... is in the middle of the wilderness because it says it is.

Yep! Pretty much!

 

[MonsterEnvy]

So it's a giant city with a massive -- and possibly magical -- infrastructure designed to support an absurdly large population... is in the middle of the wilderness because it says it is.

Rome was also the center of civilization in the west for hundreds of years. It was the seat of the Emperor and the Senate before that. Waterdeep is like 1850s San Francisco or Chicago, except randomly 10 times the size.

Sorry, no, it completely and totally breaks my suspension of disbelief.

You are also forgetting that Waterdeep is a coast city and trading hub.

It's not in the middle of the wilderness.