Which is better: B5 or DS9...

[Tempuswolf]

Re: Cheese factor 7....

In theory I loved the end of the Shadow War... I love how no amount of tactics or technology are going to help win a war with God... However, shaming works nicely. And its so in the vein of traditional SF --like TOS-- the triumph of humanism and all.

But I agree that it mainly sucked to watch. Poor exection. Even so, I have to admire the intent. Here's a question. Do you rate something for what it reaches for, or what it actually grasps?

Both, reach and grasp. It's just that I always saw the Vorlon-Shadow conflict as more along the lines of the even older traditions of EE Doc Smith's Lensman series' Arisia-Eddore conflict, classic dualism. "A third way" resolution seemed a cop out. It's a matter of expectations not being fulfilled.

 

[Hand of Evil]

I could be remembering incorrectly, but I thought that in the telemovie they said that they didn't beleive it at first, so they picked up some more pilots, who also appeared to have Minbaria souls.

Of course, they determined this using the Triluminary, which was a Vorlon artifact anyway. So it still could have been staged.

Yes, they did but the device may not have been picking up the soul but DNA, which came from a human that went into the past and was alter to look Minbaria.

 

[Mallus]

Re: Re: Cheese factor 7....

It's just that I always saw the Vorlon-Shadow conflict as more along the lines of the even older traditions of EE Doc Smith's Lensman series' Arisia-Eddore conflict, classic dualism. "A third way" resolution seemed a cop out. It's a matter of expectations not being fulfilled.

I always though there was more than a little Doc Smith in B5. Even the Shadows effortlessly appearing and disapperaing out of hyperspace made me think of the "hyperspace tubes" used by the Eddorian toadies in Boskone.

But I think its fair to look at the Vorlon/Shadow war in terms of religion, not just different philosophical tenets. You have the tag-team of God/Satan {both equally evil} vs. the mortal kinds, sick of their meddling --supposedly for the mortals benefit but really just to settle some ancient philosophical argument. Its kinda like the Book of Job w/spaceships --except here Job says F-this and pulls an Abraham. The war was never about military prowess --or cleverness, like the manipulating the other remaining Old Ones into fighting for the good guys. It was about being morally superior to God, or at least those who acted like gods.

I always liked B5's take on religion. It was always very pro-faith {it had regular characters that were clergy of real world faiths. How many other scifi shows featured that?}. But in the end, it was about shooing the gods the away so we could develop in peace.

The more I think about it, the more I hate the resolution as filmed.

 

[Chun-tzu]

Yes, they did but the device may not have been picking up the soul but DNA, which came from a human that went into the past and was alter to look Minbaria.

It's been a while since I saw those episodes, but didn't Sinclair use the same machine that transformed Delenn into a Minbari-human hybrid? Her transformation was more than superficial, IIRC.

 

[Hand of Evil]

It's been a while since I saw those episodes, but didn't Sinclair use the same machine that transformed Delenn into a Minbari-human hybrid? Her transformation was more than superficial, IIRC.

Yes it was the same one but by time loop it was she who used the device after him.

 

[Black Omega]

I have to admit, B5 works best viewed long term and in that sense it's not as accessable as DS9.

The Jack The Ripper ep is a good example. The twist for me wasn't really that he was Jack the Ripper, that was fairly obvious. The twist was why would the Vorlons be preserving and using this man. It raises questions and foreshadows what happened with the Vorlons.

 

[Orius]

Re: Re: Cheese factor 7....

It's just that I always saw the Vorlon-Shadow conflict as more along the lines of the even older traditions of EE Doc Smith's Lensman series' Arisia-Eddore conflict, classic dualism. "A third way" resolution seemed a cop out. It's a matter of expectations not being fulfilled.

But that was the point. The Vorlons and Shadows were both supposed to guide the development of the younger races. They got so caught up in their ideological disputes that they both forgot what they were supposed to be doing.

 

[Tempuswolf]

But that was the point. The Vorlons and Shadows were both supposed to guide the development of the younger races. They got so caught up in their ideological disputes that they both forgot what they were supposed to be doing.

IIRC the custodial nature of the Vorlons and Shadows wasn't revealed until very late, just prior to the war's resolution. Before that the war seemed a more primal conflict fueled by the intrinsic nature of the combatants being diametrically opposed. If there were hints that the conflict was, as it turned out to be, just a political one between the younger races' babysitters, I guess I ignored them in favor of the more classical dualism.

 

[NiTessine]

http://www.grudge-match.com/History/ds9-babylon5.shtml

Incidentally, I happen to agree.

 

[Chun-tzu]

http://www.grudge-match.com/History/ds9-babylon5.shtml

Incidentally, I happen to agree.

To place this in context, this particular popularity contest seems to have taken place in the midst of both series. The first Response-of-the-Week says that Odo has lost his shapechanging powers, and that was what, before the war with the Dominion? That storyline had some of the best DS9 episodes ever. Babylon 5 was probably in its prime back then.

And I still pick DS9 due to superior character development and more outstanding episodes.