Which is better: per encounter or per day?

[gribble]

A hypothetical situation:

Let's say a game session starts and the DM opens the game -- with a combat encounter -- at 11:50 PM (game time). After 10 rounds of combat the encounter is over. The characters then move about for 30 minutes of game time and hit another encounter. Since it's after midnight is this a new day in terms of X/day abilities or, since the adventure started at 11:50 PM, does it not become a new day until 11:51 PM -- 24 hours after the adventure first started?

I never said X/day was perfect, just (IMO) a lot less arbitrary and inconsistent. Normally a group will pick one standard (at dawn/midnight each day, after a nights rest, precisely once per 24 hours) and stick with it, and once the standard is picked it's going to remain fairly consistent.

The only "standard" thats been proposed for X/encounter is "when the board is clear" and I've given a few examples where even once this "standard" is in agreed, the ability refreshes will be fairly arbitrary and inconsistent.

I dunno - maybe there is a good way to do it, but I don't see one. But, like I said in the first thread, maybe I'm just too thick.

 

[D.Shaffer]

Neither. My preferences are, in decending order:

1: Abilities you can use at anytime. Feats, at will powers, etc.
2: Abilities you can use at anytime, but with lowered effect/harder to use the faster you use them.
3: 'Recharging' abilities that take 1-3 rounds (for example) before you can use them again.

If I HAD to chose, I'd take per encounter. As a player, I dont have to worry about whether the DM is trying to sucker me into using the once/day ability with a mook encounter, and I HATE it when everyone decided to head back to town to rest after the only enounter for the day. As a DM, I hate having to plan for and balance against the ability.

 

[philreed]

Which is true of abilities that are only useful in combat (which are distinct from abilities - e.g.: lay on hands - which are useful both in a combat encounter and outside a combat enounter).

Most abilities are only useful in combat. I'm of the opinion that the game's next edition will focus solely on combat abilities when it comes to the X/day -- or X/encounter -- aspect of characters.

Which brings up another issue - what about non-combat "encounters" that don't take place on a board? E.g.: traps, social encounters, puzzles, etc? Do they count for refreshing your X/encounter abilities?

I don't think these will be important to the game's mechanics. Look at the Fantastic Locations adventures for what I feel is the game's future. Additionally, the "dungeon delve" format we saw on the WotC site appears to support my feelings on this subject.

 

[philreed]

I never said X/day was perfect, just (IMO) a lot less arbitrary and inconsistent. Normally a group will pick one standard (at dawn/midnight each day, after a nights rest, precisely once per 24 hours) and stick with it, and once the standard is picked it's going to remain fairly consistent.

Let's play with the hypothetical a little more. (And I agree, neither option is perfect -- but I don't think we need perfect, we just need playable.)

The group has decided that midnight is the trigger point for regaining all X/day abilities. The DM starts the adventure at 11:50 PM and 9 minutes into the game the group enters combat.

Now we're in a situation in which X/day abilities can possibly recover during a single encounter.

 

[gribble]

Most abilities are only useful in combat. I'm of the opinion that the game's next edition will focus solely on combat abilities when it comes to the X/day -- or X/encounter -- aspect of characters.

Really? Paladins mount, lay on hand, remove disease? Bardic music (the competence/suggestion ones)? Druids wildshape? Even the barbarian's rage (used to break down doors or shrug off the effects of a disease/poison) and spellcasting. Sure, a lot of these abilities are useful in combat encounters, but they also have uses outside of combat. In the wilderness example given above, using the X/encounter (defined as when the board is clear), the characters would actually be less likely to have uses available for non-combat style encounters, so wouldn't be available when needed.

I don't think these will be important to the game's mechanics. Look at the Fantastic Locations adventures for what I feel is the game's future. Additionally, the "dungeon delve" format we saw on the WotC site appears to support my feelings on this subject.

I don't disagree, but we're talking about the current edition of the game, not a future edition that might be a gloried minis game. Last time I checked, the current edition was about more than just raw combat ability... and I still don't see how you can easily, consistently and non-arbitrarily define an "encounter" for a non-combat situation.

 

[gribble]

Let's play with the hypothetical a little more. (And I agree, neither option is perfect -- but I don't think we need perfect, we just need playable.)

The group has decided that midnight is the trigger point for regaining all X/day abilities. The DM starts the adventure at 11:50 PM and 9 minutes into the game the group enters combat.

Now we're in a situation in which X/day abilities can possibly recover during a single encounter.

Sure. Unless the previous session took place earlier in the day and said characters used their abilities during that session. I mean I don't normally expect to start each session with a totally clean character sheet...

That aside, it's still not at all arbitrary or inconsistent - both the GM and players know exactly when those abilities will refresh - right down to the precise combat round, if they're that interested in book keeping (and why not, everyone has a different definition of fun). You can't say that X/encounter will always have that level of consistency.

 

[Janx]

I would state that whenever the board is clear of all opposition the encounter is over.

Well, we had an interesting session last week.

The barbarian was raging (3.5 rules), and we just killed the last bad guy in the village. We then notice the bad guy from the next village had just arrived on the outskirts of town.

Half the party (including the barbarian) was going to run off and circle around the bad guys as they entered the village.

The problem was, the barbarian rage was going to be up, and the rules say: " At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter (unless he is a 17th-level barbarian, at which point this limitation no longer applies). "

The question is, was this one encounter, or two. The DM had considered it two (not taking this rage rule into account). I consider it one, because the action had effectively not stopped. If you consider it two encounters, the barbarian effectively gets a free rage (no penalty), because the 1st encountered ended (thus exhaustion is ended), and we're in a new encounter.

The main point I'm making, is that the boundaries of what is an encounter is fuzzy. The boundary of what is a new day, is less so. A new day is: midnight, sunrise, or some other arbitrary time of day, or after your PC has slept 8 hours, or both.

 

[philreed]

... and I still don't see how you can easily, consistently and non-arbitrarily define an "encounter" for a non-combat situation.

A trap is an encounter. Interaction with an NPC (such as shopping or probing for information) is an encounter. I just think that X/encounter is easier to deal with than X/day.

 

[philreed]

The question is, was this one encounter, or two.

I would classify it as two. You had dealt with the first encounter and now a second was starting.

If the situation had been one in which the second group were specifically designed as reinforcements for the first -- such as X rounds after the first group enters combat reinforcements arrive -- then I could see it as one encounter. But as you describe it I see it as two.

 

[gribble]

A trap is an encounter. Interaction with an NPC (such as shopping or probing for information) is an encounter. I just think that X/encounter is easier to deal with than X/day.

So if you go shopping and talk to 3 shopkeepers, is that one encounter or three? What about if you use figures and the DM clears the board in between talking to each shopkeeper?
(ok, that last bit was a bit tongue in cheek - sorry, I couldn't resist...)